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Author Topic:   Assumptions about faith
bdfoster
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 60
From: Riverside, CA
Joined: 05-09-2007


Message 1 of 54 (427211)
10-10-2007 12:28 PM


Perhaps this belongs in the faith and belief forum. This rant was brought on from following one of the science threads and noting the damage done to Christianity by YECism.

It is often assumed by YECs that evolutionists are athiests, or at least non-Christian. Is it all right if I make assumptions about the faith of YECs, specifically that their faith is founded on a narrow interpretation of a book that they worship instead of in the saving grace of Jesus? Of course it's not OK to make either assumption. But I think YECs are as likely to hold that faith committment as evolutionists are to reject Christianity. Some YECs seem proud of their faith, but I think their faith is incredibly weak. Their faith is threatened by any facts that undermine a preferred interpretation of scripture. In my opinion true faith in Jesus Christ is unshakable. But YECs place their faith in something that is very shakable.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 10-13-2007 4:09 PM bdfoster has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1909
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 54 (427924)
10-13-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bdfoster
10-10-2007 12:28 PM


Lets explore your motive
hello, bdfoster! ;)

Lets assume that I am a YEC. Start out by giving me reasons why my faith is directed towards the wrong place.

Explain to me how much you love Jesus, then explain to me how I am to interpret the Bible.

Once you finish this reply, I will further consider promotion of this topic. :)

10/13/07



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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by bdfoster, posted 10-10-2007 12:28 PM bdfoster has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by bdfoster, posted 10-15-2007 6:16 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

        
    bdfoster
    Member (Idle past 2986 days)
    Posts: 60
    From: Riverside, CA
    Joined: 05-09-2007


    Message 3 of 54 (428265)
    10-15-2007 6:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
    10-13-2007 4:09 PM


    Re: Lets explore your motive
    I think a good test for anyone's faith is to ask what would happen to if certain things were found to be true. If your faith would be threatened by the indisputable discovery that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith is founded on the belief that he did. The christian doctrine of grace, is based on the belief that man is sinful, Jesus lifed a perfect life, died as payment for man's sin and was raised from the dead. This fact would undermine the doctrine of grace.

    But if your faith would be threatened by by some other fact then your faith is founded on something other than grace alone. If your faith would be threatened by errors in scriputure, then your faith is in inerrency in addition to grace. If your faith would be threatened by evolution, then your faith is in a narrow interpretation of scripture instead of grace alone.

    With the exception of the indisputable discovery that Jesus did not rise from the dead, I can think of no finding of science would threaten my faith.

    As a Christian I hate to see people reject Christ because of a misconception. It's one thing to have a naturalistic worldview. A naturalistic worldview is just as intellectually valid as a Christian worldview. But I hate to see YECism associated with Christianity. That is a large part of my motivation. I think the YEC ministry drives people away from faith in Christ. Those that it does bring to "faith", I wonder what their faith is in. By the same token we TEs are accused by YECs of driving Christians from faith and causing faith crises. And that's the last thing I want to do. But again I wonder, faith in what? Faith in Christ shouldn't be threatened by deeper knowledge of his creation.

    If you decide not to promote the topic I understand. I wanted to explore this issue without getting off topic from some other threads.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 10-13-2007 4:09 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 9:40 AM bdfoster has responded

      
    AdminNem
    Inactive Member


    Message 4 of 54 (428309)
    10-15-2007 10:20 PM


    Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3418
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 5 of 54 (428384)
    10-16-2007 9:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by bdfoster
    10-15-2007 6:16 PM


    Sounds a bit like the same thing
    Let me try to get this straight. You think a YEC has weak faith because if something is found out to be true, let's say an error in scripture, that this is irrelevant to what faith should really be based on, and therefore is "threatening a deeper knowledge of his creation".

    But you're also saying that your faith is strong because it only relys on grace. That is, the only thing that will shake your faith is if it was discovered that Jesus did not rise from the dead. And you find that discovery to be highly unlikely, I assume.

    So let's say we have this:

    YEC
    -holds Biblical inerrency on faith
    -holds the doctrine of grace on faith

    bdfoster
    -holds the doctrine of grace on faith

    Is this correct? You're saying your faith is better because:
    1. What you hold "on faith" is specified as a "doctrine".
    2. There is less scientific discovery that can disprove it.

    Does that explain your position well? Or am I missing something?

    I see errors in this:

    First, I'm sure a YEC would also consider Biblical inerrency as "a doctrine", so I'm not sure if that point would have much meaning to them.

    Second, if "fear of scientific discovery" is a motivation, why not go one step further, like this:

    YEC
    -holds Biblical inerrency on faith
    -holds the doctrine of grace on faith
    -holds that God exists as an incorporeal entity that does not interact with this world on faith

    bdfoster
    -holds the doctrine of grace on faith
    -holds that God exists as an incorporeal entity that does not interact with this world on faith

    Unfalsifiable Believer
    -holds that God exists as an incorporeal entity that does not interact with this world on faith

    This way, the Unfalsifiable Believer has less to worry about from science than you do. Does this make his faith better? In fact, the Unfalsifiable Believer has absolutely nothing to worry about from science, does this make his faith perfect?

    If you hold that the grace-doctrice must be included, or else you don't even really "have faith" or "don't believe in the right thing"... How do you talk to the YEC who simply thinks that you don't really "have faith" or "don't believe in the right thing" because you're leaving out Biblical inerrency?

    Basically, what are you using to determine what "a good faith" is? Clarify those parameters first. Then you'll have a basis for comparing your faith to a YEC faith and specifying why your faith is better, or perhaps "more developed."


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by bdfoster, posted 10-15-2007 6:16 PM bdfoster has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 9:47 AM Stile has responded
     Message 20 by bdfoster, posted 10-17-2007 1:54 PM Stile has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 6 of 54 (428387)
    10-16-2007 9:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
    10-16-2007 9:40 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    I think the real question is whether or not someone is willing to consider everything they hold as a belief might be wrong.

    That, of course would, include even whether or not GOD exists.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 9:40 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:10 AM jar has responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3418
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 7 of 54 (428393)
    10-16-2007 10:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by jar
    10-16-2007 9:47 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    jar writes:

    I think the real question is whether or not someone is willing to consider everything they hold as a belief might be wrong.

    I agree. What I am currently struggling with is that this would seem to bring up the idea that one no longer has faith. Maybe only (simply?) hope. Does tentative faith exist? Or is that just hope? Is there a difference? Is the difference that faith includes a certain amount of arrogance where hope is more honest? Does a difference even matter?

    Personally, I'm under the view that the label no longer matters, and this position is simply "open to new information", regardless of what anyone wants to call it. In that case, it makes it right to me. Sort of the absolute stance of the saying "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst".


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 9:47 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 10:20 AM Stile has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 8 of 54 (428396)
    10-16-2007 10:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Stile
    10-16-2007 10:10 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    Faith is a slightly different position than just hope, a more positive one. I would not call it as much arrogance as simply a higher degree of confidence.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:10 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:53 AM jar has responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3418
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 9 of 54 (428407)
    10-16-2007 10:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jar
    10-16-2007 10:20 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    jar writes:

    Faith is a slightly different position than just hope, a more positive one.

    I don't understand. Hope is positive, and can range from slightly positive, to extremely positive. I don't see how one can get into some range that's "too positive" to be called hope. I'm under the impression that it's impossible for hope to have a limit on how positive it is, to me it's infinite.

    I would not call it as much arrogance as simply a higher degree of confidence.

    A higher degree of confidence based on subjective analysis? Is that even still confidence? I cannot think of much objective evidence to base such confidence on. And that small chance of not-being-true still exists, doesn't it? If any tentativity is included at all, no matter how small, can it still be called faith?

    But my dictionary semantics are rather trivial, really. I think we're on the same page, if we did agree on definitions, I'm pretty sure we'ed quickly agree on the main point.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 10:20 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 11:00 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 10 of 54 (428409)
    10-16-2007 11:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
    10-16-2007 10:53 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    I don't understand. Hope is positive, and can range from slightly positive, to extremely positive.

    I was using "positive" as an indicator of confidence level. Faith is more than simply the hope that something is true, it is the belief that it is true.

    But yes, even with faith there is always tentativity, and honesty demands that you recognize that if something is shown to be false, you will accept it.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Stile, posted 10-16-2007 10:53 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 10-16-2007 2:47 PM jar has responded

      
    bluegenes
    Member (Idle past 584 days)
    Posts: 3119
    From: U.K.
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 11 of 54 (428491)
    10-16-2007 2:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by jar
    10-16-2007 11:00 AM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    jar writes:

    But yes, even with faith there is always tentativity, and honesty demands that you recognize that if something is shown to be false, you will accept it.

    As the kind of God that you believe in is unfalsifiable, Jar, you can be sure that your honesty in this respect will never be tested.:)

    (I like the word "tentativity". It makes sense, although I doubt if it's in any dictionary. And it sounds so much better than the conventional "doubt").


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 11:00 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 2:58 PM bluegenes has responded
     Message 13 by ringo, posted 10-16-2007 3:13 PM bluegenes has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 12 of 54 (428496)
    10-16-2007 2:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by bluegenes
    10-16-2007 2:47 PM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    Doubt is a fine word, and something everyone should have about everything, including the existence of God.

    And sure my God is falsifiable, just not during this life.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 10-16-2007 2:47 PM bluegenes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by bluegenes, posted 10-17-2007 7:20 AM jar has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16350
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 13 of 54 (428499)
    10-16-2007 3:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by bluegenes
    10-16-2007 2:47 PM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    bluegenes writes:

    I like the word "tentativity". It makes sense, although I doubt if it's in any dictionary.

    Words aren't born in dictionaries. :)


    “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
    -- Joseph Goebbels
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by bluegenes, posted 10-16-2007 2:47 PM bluegenes has responded

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    bluegenes
    Member (Idle past 584 days)
    Posts: 3119
    From: U.K.
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 14 of 54 (428517)
    10-16-2007 4:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
    10-16-2007 3:13 PM


    Ringo writes:

    Words aren't born in dictionaries.

    Exactly. I like new words, and was admiring jar's creativity.

    Although, on second thoughts, tentativity does sound a bit like a G. W. Bushism.

    Speaking of the world's most powerful creationist brings me neatly back towards the topic. BDFoster suggests that YEC beliefs are more shakeable than his own Christian beliefs. In a sense, I agree.

    Any form of religion that describes a non-existent universe is going to get shaken as we gain increasing understanding of the real thing. So, YEC's head on collision with all the sciences makes it very shakeable indeed, if that's what BDF meant.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by ringo, posted 10-16-2007 3:13 PM ringo has not yet responded

      
    bluegenes
    Member (Idle past 584 days)
    Posts: 3119
    From: U.K.
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 15 of 54 (428668)
    10-17-2007 7:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by jar
    10-16-2007 2:58 PM


    Re: Sounds a bit like the same thing
    TrueChristian writes:

    And sure my God is falsifiable, just not during this life.

    You'll get a shock when you die, and Krishna is sitting on his throne in front of you, telling you that you've got to come back here for another round as an untouchable.

    When is a door not a door?

    When it's ajar.

    When is a jar not a jar?

    When it's a True Christian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by jar, posted 10-16-2007 2:58 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
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