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Author Topic:   Free will, or is it?
Logic
Member (Idle past 3353 days)
Posts: 31
From: Australia
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 1 of 163 (455348)
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


I've read many threads in these forums; however I’ve held back on many responses due to pure laziness. My topic of discussion is quite different to debates that have taken place here.

If god gave us free will, then how can he know the out come of our choices, thus how can prophecies be made?

If the end times are coming then some of us are domed as sinners and others for heaven. God should already know who’s been naughty, and who’s been nice, so really there is no free will just predefined destinies. I'd like hear you responses on this topic

Oh I’m a atheist however I believe that every human is connected just not in a spiritual way >.< yeah kinda weird.


Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 163 (455387)
02-12-2008 9:51 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 163 (455397)
02-12-2008 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


Logic writes:

If god gave us free will..

Hi Logic. Welcome to EvC

Firstly God didn't give us free will. God gave Adam free will and Adam blew it. In injecting himself with sin he became a sinjunkie - just like a person who injects heroin becomes a heroinjunkie.

Ever notice how you don't have to teach children to lie? That's mankind. We're the offspring of junkie displaying our ancestor-sown addiction as soon as our little legs can carry us. Naturally, all our thinking is filtered through sin-tinted spectacles too.

Not that it alters things very much. We have a nature which is geared to sin vs. God acting upon us to counter that nature. Which is another way of achieving the same thing as us having an independant-of-God free will.

...then how can he know the out come of our choices, thus how can prophecies be made

God knows the outcome of our future "choices" because our future is present tense to him now. That is to say, the thinking is that God occupies our past, present and future...now.

My topic of discussion is quite different to debates that have taken place here.

Free will in the face of God's omnipresence/science has been thrashed out at least a couple of times in the last few years. As the book of Ecclesiastes goes, there ain't nothing new under the sun

:)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 163 (455398)
02-12-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


If god gave us free will, then how can he know the out come of our choices, thus how can prophecies be made?

Omnipotence.

Sure, it doesn't follow logic, but logic is not very useful for finding truth.


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tesla
Member
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 5 of 163 (455401)
02-12-2008 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Logic
02-11-2008 11:35 PM


variables
he knows the variables.

if you take the behavior of say, an ant. and you put it in a box with choices, you can determine the different actions the ant can possibly make, and say by introducing a food, when its hungry, that it will find it. and eat it. because you know the variables. by this way, can you know the things that it will definitely do, and be able to time almost to perfection where it will be at what time you introduce the food, by observation.

the ant has less awareness, and cant see what or where you, the observer will be, but you can see and observe it, to the scale you can determine its choices.

we cannot observe and know what God will do, but he can observe and know us, and know what we will do, because of the greater awareness.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 163 (455403)
02-12-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by tesla
02-12-2008 10:44 AM


Re: variables
we cannot observe and know what God will do, but he can observe and know us, and know what we will do, because of the greater awareness.

Then we don't have Free Will.

if you take the behavior of say, an ant. and you put it in a box with choices, you can determine the different actions the ant can possibly make, and say by introducing a food, when its hungry, that it will find it. and eat it. because you know the variables. by this way, can you know the things that it will definitely do, and be able to time almost to perfection where it will be at what time you introduce the food, by observation.

If that is the case, then the ant has no choice in where it will be and what it will be doing, in other words: It doesn't have Free Will.


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tesla
Member
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 7 of 163 (455410)
02-12-2008 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 10:53 AM


Re: variables
Then we don't have Free Will.

you and the ant both have free will, but you can determine what it will do by knowing it.

take your spouse, you can determine the reaction of your spouse by knowing the spouse. but your spouse has free will, and will not necessarily do what you like, but you know him/her enough to know an outcome.

for instance, a man buys some new golf clubs. the wife wanted new shoes. but there was only enough money for one or the other. the man bought the clubs because he "made the money" and was preparing to show the clubs to his wife, because he knew she would be "pissed". and by past behavior, knew to wrap the clubs up in something soft, until she cooled down.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-12-2008 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 163 (455418)
02-12-2008 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by tesla
02-12-2008 11:14 AM


Re: variables
you and the ant both have free will, but you can determine what it will do by knowing it.

If you can determine what they will do by knowing it, then they had no choice but to do it, and thus they had no free will.

he knew she would be "pissed"

If he really knew it, then she did not have a choice in being pissed. If being pissed was not her choice then it was not from free will. If she did choose to be pissed, then she could have choosed not too and then he didn't actually know what she would be.


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Replies to this message:
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tesla
Member
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 9 of 163 (455422)
02-12-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 11:41 AM


Re: variables
If you can determine what they will do by knowing it, then they had no choice but to do it, and thus they had no free will.

we all have the choice. some people change.

if you see a plane coming towards your house, that is on fire and missing a wing, and you run in and say : everyone get out a plane is fixing to hit the house! you'll all be killed!

there is chance that you were too late, or they might not believe you because you like to prank, and by even a 30 second delay could cost all their life.

the man prepared for the reaction, but she might surprise him.

we all have free will. the power of choice. if you say: predictability means no free will; you have made a choice in a belief that i think a very few would agree with. we choose our habits which become predictability. but habits can change. I'm living proof.

just because you cant see the heart and mind of an individual, doesn't mean that a superior being could not. you cant hear what a dog can hear. nor smell the way a dog smells.

but as you choose to believe, its your choice. and i cant say anything to change that. its your choice. just as i believe what i believe, because i choose it.

Edited by tesla, : know=no


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by iano, posted 02-12-2008 12:48 PM tesla has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 163 (455433)
02-12-2008 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by tesla
02-12-2008 11:48 AM


Re: variables
the man prepared for the reaction, but she might surprise him.

Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. Know, in the absolute sense that is required for prophecies, etc like this thread is talking about.

we all have free will. the power of choice. if you say: predictability means no free will; you have made a choice in a belief that i think a very few would agree with. we choose our habits which become predictability. but habits can change. I'm living proof.

Its about absolute predictablitly, as in preordination and destiny, prophecy, etc. If these are true then we do not have a choice and we lack free will.

just because you cant see the heart and mind of an individual, doesn't mean that a superior being could not.

But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.

God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B.

just as i believe what i believe, because i choose it.

Do you really think that you choose your beliefs? I mean, can you choose to un-believe something?

Could you choose to believe that, say, the world is flat? Or the sky is green? Can you really say that you can choose to believe something?


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humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 3588 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 11 of 163 (455436)
02-12-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
quote:
But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.


How does knowledge of someone's choice cause them to choose the way they did?

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iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 163 (455437)
02-12-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by tesla
02-12-2008 11:48 AM


Re: variables
We shouldn't really be using the example of what a husband might predict about his wife. It's God, free will and prophecy-that-must -surely-come-about.

In order for a prophecy to surely come about, God must be able to predict all the thoughts and actions of all the people who live between the time of the giving of the prophecy and the time of it's fulfillment. A span of thousands of years, billions of people and trillions of thoughts and actions.

If he cannot, someone could do something he hasn't predicted and set off a chain of events resulting in disturbance to the future prophecy outcome. But God couldn't issue prophecy if there was any possibility of it not coming to fruition. Otherwise he'd run the risk of being labelled a false prophet.

To say that God can design a machine which is utterly predictable (like a robot) whilst ensuring it also has free choice (unlike a robot) is like saying that omnipotent God can create a weight too heavy for himself to lift and lift it.

One might believe it to be the case. But the belief is not a rational belief.


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humoshi
Junior Member (Idle past 3588 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 13 of 163 (455438)
02-12-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
quote:
God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B.


You can choose whatever room you want. You can choose A or B. Just because God knows which one you will choose doesn't mean you had no choice in the matter.

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tesla
Member
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 14 of 163 (455439)
02-12-2008 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-12-2008 12:39 PM


Re: variables
Then he didn't know that she was going to be pissed. Know, in the absolute sense that is required for prophecies, etc like this thread is talking about.

he believed absolutely she would be "pissed" or he wouldn't have wrapped the clubs. but truthfully, how she was going to react depended on her choice.

Its about absolute predictability, as in preordination and destiny, prophecy, etc. If these are true then we do not have a choice and we lack free will.

some things are absolutely predictable. like payday. after 5 years of same pay same time same day, you expect it. but every once in a while something can surprise you. the market is by choice of buyers. you can help your product through subliminal messaging and advertising, but the choice is still up to the buyers. if the demand is replaced, or lessened, you could loose your job.

But if god know your choice before you choose it then you aren't really choosing because you have to choose what god knows you will choose otherwise god doesn't really know what your choice is.

God puts you infront of two rooms A and B. You have to choose one room. But god knows that you will choose A before you choose it. Can you then decide to choose B instead? If you can, then god didn't know your choice before hand, and if you must choose A, then you lack the free will to choose B.

it is your choice. i can feed a dog, and attempt to teach it tricks. dog A: learns the tricks. dog b: is too lazy. so wont learn tricks. i spend more time with dog b to help it learn, hoping for it to learn. but if all fails and it is too lazy, i may just get another dog. it depends on my patience.

Do you really think that you choose your beliefs? I mean, can you choose to un-believe something?

Could you choose to believe that, say, the world is flat? Or the sky is green? Can you really say that you can choose to believe something?

my brother is color blind. so to him grass is blue. not sure how that color thing works. what we see we define by how we see it. we know the color red is red, but what does red look like through another's eyes? maybe if you changed views, it would be what you would call blue.

i believe absolutely in my power of choice. i can choose to go to work, or choose not too. but i have to be willing to accept the consequences. if i choose to cheat on my wife, and my marriage ends, can i blame the whore? i can try. but inevitably, it is my choice.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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reiverix
Member (Idle past 4158 days)
Posts: 80
From: Central Ohio
Joined: 10-18-2007


Message 15 of 163 (455440)
02-12-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by humoshi
02-12-2008 12:50 PM


Re: variables
You can choose whatever room you want. You can choose A or B. Just because God knows which one you will choose doesn't mean you had no choice in the matter.

But if it was already known by god, you only think you chose freely. The reality is you didn't have a choice.

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