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Author Topic:   Can god heal the sick?
Atos
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 64 (103035)
04-27-2004 10:07 AM


I just caught a bit of a television program where an over-zealous preacher was up on stage "healing" people.
There was the ususal woman that was healed and that could now walk, even though she rolled up in a wheel chair. There was a woman who had a "tumor" in her stomach which was "healed"
A man had vision and hearing problems, and walked with a cane. After "healing", of course he could see, hear and walk... The stage production reminded me of a WWF smack down with the lord.
On the other end of the spectrum, another different show on the same channel had a woman who's husband, who was a baptist preacher, died of Lou Gehrig's disease despite her vigilant prayers, her son's prayers, her churches prayers, etc. She then stated that her husband dying strengthened her faith in Christ? Why would it? Is this just another case of religion simply soothing greif?
I wonder what would happen if you brought a guy with Lou Gehrigs disease (Always fatal) to a faith healer, and what would they do? Further what would they say when he died anyway? How can faith healers "get away" with what they are doing?
Why would a god "heal" so many people who attend a freaky revival, but god kills this good minister with Lou Gehrigs disease?

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 64 (103088)
04-27-2004 1:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 64 (103099)
04-27-2004 2:30 PM


IMHO, God can heal the sick.
For many, although we do not yet understand why, faith seems to aid in healing.
Does that imply that the Faith Healers are anything more than Charlatans? Nope.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Parasomnium, posted 04-28-2004 4:38 AM jar has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 4 of 64 (103312)
04-28-2004 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
04-27-2004 2:30 PM


IMHO, God can heal the sick.
Of course he can! (If he existed, that is.) He wouldn't be much of a God if he couldn't, would he? Omnipotence and all that, remember? The question is: why doesn't he? Or rather: why doesn't he always do so?
For many, although we do not yet understand why, faith seems to aid in healing.
If that is the case, and I concede that it might be, then the conclusion that "God can heal the sick" is still unwarranted.
Does that imply that the Faith Healers are anything more than Charlatans? Nope.
Some elaboration would be in order here, I suppose?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 04-27-2004 2:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 05-01-2004 12:26 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
Corkscrew
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 64 (103320)
04-28-2004 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atos
04-27-2004 10:07 AM


Because there is no god!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Atos, posted 04-27-2004 10:07 AM Atos has not replied

  
Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6074 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 6 of 64 (103325)
04-28-2004 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atos
04-27-2004 10:07 AM


quote:
On the other end of the spectrum, another different show on the same channel had a woman who's husband, who was a baptist preacher, died of Lou Gehrig's disease despite her vigilant prayers, her son's prayers, her churches prayers, etc. She then stated that her husband dying strengthened her faith in Christ? Why would it? Is this just another case of religion simply soothing greif?
Despite either outcome of the husband dying or not, the wife would have said her faith was strengthened. What always strikes me as funny is that faith requires no evidence, so how can evidence strengthen it? If any conditions can lead to strengthening of faith, how can one's faith ever be weak?
quote:
I wonder what would happen if you brought a guy with Lou Gehrigs disease (Always fatal) to a faith healer, and what would they do? Further what would they say when he died anyway? How can faith healers "get away" with what they are doing?
I have heard faith healers say things to the effect of "well his faith wasn't strong enough" when the sick die. It is a really convenient out for them. They get away with it because people have a deep need to believe in something greater than themselves. Those who believe in faith healers delude themselves to accept whatever the outcome of the healing as proof of God.
The thing is, in most cases these faith healers are harmless. They do their little song and dance with people who have ailments that modern medicine has failed to treat. If it makes a people dying of cancer feel a little better to have the hope that a faith healer brings, more power to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Atos, posted 04-27-2004 10:07 AM Atos has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Parasomnium, posted 04-28-2004 7:57 AM Cynic1 has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 7 of 64 (103327)
04-28-2004 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cynic1
04-28-2004 7:38 AM


The thing is, in most cases these faith healers are harmless. They do their little song and dance with people who have ailments that modern medicine has failed to treat. If it makes a people dying of cancer feel a little better to have the hope that a faith healer brings, more power to them.
In my country, some time ago, a famous television personality died of breast cancer, because she had had no treatment. She had been told by another famous person, a faith healer, that she didn't have cancer, and she believed it. So faith healers aren't always so harmless.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cynic1, posted 04-28-2004 7:38 AM Cynic1 has replied

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Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6074 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 64 (103330)
04-28-2004 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Parasomnium
04-28-2004 7:57 AM


I agree completely, I was just speculating that in most cases they are harmless. Perhaps it would be better to simply say that they are harmless in those cases in which modern medicine has failed, anyway. In cases in which a person spurns going to a doctor in favor of a faith healer, well, I just hope those cases are in the minority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Parasomnium, posted 04-28-2004 7:57 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 64 (104469)
05-01-2004 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Parasomnium
04-28-2004 4:38 AM


Well, maybe I can explain my beliefs a little better.
First I happen to believe that there is a GOD.
But the topic also begins with the assumption that GOD exists, so for me, the answer is clear and simple.
Can God Heal the sick?
Answer, Yes!
But I think you were asking me to expand on the issue of Faith Healers.
Well, here goes.
I have a very low opinion of most Preachers and Evangelists and consider most to be only slightly higher on the evolutionary ladder than Slugs but leaving far bigger trail of slime.
For me, religion is a deeply person experience between GOD and the individual. And in teh Bible, whether they are true incidents or simply stories to convey a message, cures were usually chance encounters between GOD and the sufferer. In addition, in most cases the command to the cured individual was basically don't bother going around telling folk about this, just get on with your life.
The idea of Evangelists hold healing sessions where cures become a production assembly line runs counter to all that I believe. If GOD exists, if GOD can cure illness, then all that is needed is to ask.
No TV lights, no national broadcasts, no sitting around afterwards saying "Did you see how he cured that child? Did you see that man dance on the way out?" That's bullshit.
Were Christ to return tomorrow, IMHO his first acts would be to boot about 75% of the ministers out of their churches and 100% of the Tele-Evangelists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Parasomnium, posted 04-28-2004 4:38 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Parasomnium, posted 05-03-2004 5:22 AM jar has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 10 of 64 (104890)
05-03-2004 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
05-01-2004 12:26 AM


Thank you for your explanation, jar. I think yours is healthier outlook on religion than that of many.
But I still wonder how you can reconcile the concept of an omnibenevolent god with the reality of a world full of suffering people. Why would an omnibenevolent (and omnipotent!) god rely on chance encounters with sufferers, when he could put everything right by just wanting it?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 05-01-2004 12:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 11:05 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 64 (104924)
05-03-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Parasomnium
05-03-2004 5:22 AM


Very good question.
I guess the best possible answer is that I also believe in Evil.
But there is a little bit more.
If you look at evolution, we are learning more daily about How it worked. As we learn more we are able to understand the wonder of it all.
But it is not just the world, species and Universe that are evolving.
We, as individuals are also evolving. We learn more daily about how sickness works and what we can do to prevent or cure it.
Slowly, we are learning more about how the mind works. We are learning how to heal even thought but far slower (it's much more complex a problem) then our understanding of the physical universe.
Gradually we are learning more about weather and we have been able to reduce the pain and suffering there as well.
We are learning more about how societies work and striving to find some reasonable substitute for warfare as a way of settling disputes.
We are evolving, just as everything else is evolving.
And could that not be GOD's purpose? Is it not possible (and for some of us perhaps even a reasonable expectation), that one of the species that will follow humans, post-human, evolved human, might not one day grow into something that might even be a suitable companion, perhaps even friend, of GOD?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Parasomnium, posted 05-03-2004 5:22 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 05-03-2004 5:29 PM jar has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 12 of 64 (105022)
05-03-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
05-03-2004 11:05 AM


I guess the best possible answer is that I also believe in Evil.
Sorry, but to me that's just not good enough. No sooner have I mentioned omnipotence, or Evil rears it ugly head. A bit ad-hoccish, I'd say. You know, this whole thing with God, Evil, omnipotence, omnibenevolence and all that, it just doesn't add up. If God is omnipotent, Evil is not something he should have to worry about. Apart from the question of how this supposed Evil came to be in the first place (did God have something to do with it? Hmmm, naughty God...), he can just wish it out of existence. Next, while he's at it, he can get rid of suffering. And all of that before breakfast. After all, omnipotence gives God a bit of an edge, wouldn't you say?
But there is a little bit more.
Indeed there is, let me paraphrase what you said: we are learning about how evolution, sickness, the mind, the weather and societies work.
Yes, we are learning a lot about these things, and as we learn, we are able to take God out of the equation and put some more rational explanations in his place. So far, so good. But then, there you go and reintroduce God:
And could that not be GOD's purpose?
Why God again?
Is it not possible (and for some of us perhaps even a reasonable expectation), that one of the species that will follow humans, post-human, evolved human, might not one day grow into something that might even be a suitable companion, perhaps even friend, of GOD?
Well, I guess it's possible, but I would hardly call it reasonable. Not after all that we've learned about this universe, anyway. Besides, why would God go through such an elaborate procedure to get himself some company? Couldn't he just create them, without all the tedious learning that needs to be done by his, shall we say, 'pet'? Could he not just create us with all the knowledge needed instilled in us, so that we could be his companions right from the start?
And another thing: why does God need company anyway? He's supposed to be perfect, he doesn't need us pesky humans (post- or otherwise) to be happy, God supposedly is happiness personified.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 11:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 5:48 PM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 16 by RingoKid, posted 05-04-2004 9:25 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 64 (105028)
05-03-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Parasomnium
05-03-2004 5:29 PM


All valid points and I would not dispute any of them.
But we are dealing with FAITH in this thread. And specifically, "Can GOD heal the sick".
Basically, I believe that there really is good and evil. You say that is not good enough for you.
I say I don't yet understand the WHY for most of what is seen. I am searching for that answer but honestly, doubt that the WHY will become known during my lifetime.
The rest of what you are dealing with is the HOW. There, I agree. Let's take GOD out of the explanation. I have no problem with that. I have already said I happen to find Evolution to be the best explanation of what is observed.
But if you want to know why GOD allows there to be sickness, all I can say is, "I don't know".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Parasomnium, posted 05-03-2004 5:29 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 05-04-2004 3:47 AM jar has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 64 (105032)
05-03-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atos
04-27-2004 10:07 AM


Think about it logically
First of all, to know if God can heal, or is healing someone, you would have to know the will of God. From what I read in the Bible, God has been said to do three things:
1. Heal people.
2. Make people sick.
3. Do nothing.
Without knowing what God intends it is impossible to claim that he is doing any of the three above. God also causes sickness in those with faith, such as Job and his awful boils. My opinion is that we can't know (hence my agnostic slant).
On faith healers, it just doesn't make sense. Would a faith healer only heal a few people on Sunday? If you had this power, would you sit around and watch football on Saturdays, all the while knowing that people that could be cured are dropping dead around you? How christian is that?
Secondly, if this were for real, why aren't there people lined up a mile deep? Perhaps for the same reason that you can't bet on professional wrestling in Las Vegas? Even the congregation deep down knows that it is fake, but they still enjoy the pagentry and the social interaction. The jig is up, but everyone is having too much fun to care.
However, it is not all fun and games (personal story starts here). There was a mentally handicapped man who lived in the community where I grew up. A stroke had caused partial paralysis on one side, slurred speech, and overall mental retardation. This stroke happened when he was fairly young (20's I think), but in spite of this he was the garbage man for the local community. He really respected our family, and us him. One day he knocked at the door, which he rarely did. As it turned out, his VCR was broken and he wasn't able to tape his favorite show. Guess what his favorite show was. Benny Hinn, a faith healer who is a regular on one of the more prominent christian stations (TBN I think). Of course I agreed to help him out, but I was red with anger. Here was a proud man who thought that his life could be changed by the touch of a faith healer. Out of anyone, this man did not deserve to be given false hope and it sickened me to no end. To this day, I have a beef with faith healers not because of what they have done to me but because of what they did to this man. Well, I'll quite before the profanity starts.
[This message has been edited Loudmouth, 05-03-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 15 of 64 (105137)
05-04-2004 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
05-03-2004 5:48 PM


Good and evil
All right, jar, let's concentrate on good and evil for the moment, we'll get to the 'why' later. You say you believe that there really is good and evil. Do you mean by this that good and evil exist objectively, as entities in their own right? Because I don't think that's the case.
Good and evil are subjective concepts, i.e. you can always look at good from a different perspective and see evil. It is good when a wildebeast escapes the chase of a lion? From the point of view of the wildebeast, it is. But the lion will beg to differ. It's and old and hungry lion, and this chase took all the energy it had left to survive. The wildebeast getting away is definitely bad news for the lion, for now it will surely die of starvation.
Good and evil are not absolutes. From my point of view, they are just that: points of view.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 05-03-2004 5:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 9:58 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
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