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Author Topic:   Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
J. Davis 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 1 of 306 (213000)
06-01-2005 8:59 AM


Hi, I've lurked here a month or so and I hope this is an apropriate topic to start out with. I didn't like the ideas that Christ is cruel, and thought this incorrect.

Dear Shcraffinator, Christ isn't immoral or cruel, you have it the wrong way.

It seems Monk hasn't gone in depth as to why you're wrong, but I don't want you to believe your post is true about God. Because you're wrong, you can't blame God for your sin, you have a choice, which I will reveal;

Schrafinator writes:

Presumably, the all-powerful, all-knowing God made me with a skeptical mind, correct?

If he knew I would be exposed to the Gospels and find them lacking, then he basically created me only to let me burn in hell for eternity.

If this is true, then He is cruel, vindictive, and lacking in morality and is not worthy of my praise.

Not that I want to turn this into a free will thread, but either God is a cruel god or he isn't really all powerful

There is no "skeptical mind" Schraf. YOU who CHOSE skepticism, a philosophy of mankind and therefore you created a skeptical mind for yourself, not God. There is the mind(A), that makes choices-->(B). Even I think skeptically about things, yet believe, so there is a false dichotomy here, in that you say God is either cruel or not powerful. But since that's built on the assumption that he created you to not believe, then I think that assumption is false. The third option is that God can be all-powerful yet has chosen to give you the choice of belief/disbelief.

Christ said those who rejected him, another would judge them, that he came to save the world, not judge. He also said those who rejected him are condemned already because they have not believed in the only begotten Son of God. He didn't create you to send you to hell. You're argument is;

God caused skeptical shraff so she'd go to hell. = God is cruel or hasn't got enough power in his engine.;)

The truth is that God made Schraff(A) and she has sinned like everyone else on earth, she has her own will to choose as to whether to reject or accept the truth(B), and therefore chooses whether to believe(D) in the only begotten Son or not(E). (E) will leave you un-atoned for, which is all I can say. At best, I can say - you won't have atonement for your wrong-doings in life, and I thereby delicately warn you of that reality.

As for your fallacy of limited choices, (2), there is not really a choice between God being cruel and not really all powerful, as God's capabilities are not dependent upon your choices in life. Feel free to get back to me. Sorry to pick on you, but I feel your post deserved my attention:). I hope you can see, that God makes us all with minds to choose for ourselves. God isn't cruel, you just have to lay down your own worldy wisdom and believe, like many skeptics have done, can and do!


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-01-2005 12:54 PM J. Davis has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 12:59 PM J. Davis has not yet responded
 Message 6 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:21 PM J. Davis has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:35 PM J. Davis has not yet responded
 Message 19 by randman, posted 06-01-2005 3:02 PM J. Davis has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Modulous, posted 06-01-2005 3:59 PM J. Davis has not yet responded

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 306 (213003)
06-01-2005 9:02 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 306 (213082)
06-01-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 8:59 AM


what is wrong with god being cruel? if he foreknew and predestined all man-as the bible says-according each to his path, then he has created some to fall. why can't he choose whom he desires? he is not bound by our meager moral ideals of democracy and equality. he is not bound by our ideas of what justice ought to be. if he made all that there is and he made the rules, then he can full well decide who will follow them and who will not. nowhere does it say that he is benevolent. this is our own demand. as such, if he truly created the universe and conquered chaos, then he deserves praise simply for that, not because he is loving or any of that weak mushy bullshit.

in my opinion, either god is not benevolent or his truth is much different from what we know. ie there is no condemnation or condemnation follows rules of being 'religious' as the word defines it (love widows and children and care for each other) and not some arbitrary 'i love jesus' statement.

Luke 20 Then He lifted up His eyes toward His disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, For yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now, For you shall be filled. Blessed are you who weep now, For you shall laugh. 22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man's sake. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.

24 "But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation. 25 Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, For you shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe *to you when *all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. 32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you." 39 And He spoke a parable to them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.

43 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil *treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

there is much in this that reminds of kharma and such. perhaps it is not that we must call on his name, but that we should follow his words.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 06-01-2005 12:56 PM

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 06-01-2005 01:23 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 8:59 AM J. Davis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 1:10 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18481
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4 of 306 (213088)
06-01-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 8:59 AM


You're going to have to help me out with this one. God created Schraf, so it's her fault she chose not to believe?

In that case, the most recent bug on the EvC Forum search page is your fault. :)

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 8:59 AM J. Davis has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18481
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 5 of 306 (213094)
06-01-2005 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
06-01-2005 12:54 PM


iseethemoosehonorariumisoveryouknowspacesandpunctuationalsogetintheway
paragraphscausethesameproblemalsoinlistsyoudontwantnumberedorletteredi
temslike123orabcoreveniiiiiijustwonderingifyouthoughtaboutthisanddonst
forgetthosepossessivesorapostrophesforcontractionsnoneofthoseeitherser
iouslyjustteasingihavenoproblemswithnocapsmydocumentationpersonisthesa
mewayexceptwhensheswritingdocumentationarevowelsreallynecessary:)percy
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-01-2005 12:54 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-01-2005 1:21 PM Percy has responded

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 6 of 306 (213102)
06-01-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 8:59 AM


Excuse me?
God can be all-powerful yet has chosen to give you the choice of belief/disbelief.

Do you fail to see the contradiction? God created me. God is all knowing. God knew when he created the universe that Mike Hager would come into being and that he would see the world and find that it contradicts the existence of God every step of the way. I made that choice, but God set up me and the game full knowing what the outcome would be. I was allowed by God to exist with God's full knowledge that I would, under his rules, be consigned to the pit. No amount of sophistry and apologetics will change that. I was created for no reason other then to be punished.

If your idea of God exists, he did these things and he is cruel. Thankfully, your god does not exist and I need noty worry about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 8:59 AM J. Davis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 1:33 PM mikehager has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 306 (213109)
06-01-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
06-01-2005 1:10 PM


i only used caps in one post to demonstrate that i wasn't doing it out of spite. you're being argumentative and this post is off topic and a personal attack and i'd like you to bugger off.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 1:10 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 1:31 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 18481
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 8 of 306 (213115)
06-01-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
06-01-2005 1:21 PM


brennakimi writes:

i only used caps in one post to demonstrate that i wasn't doing it out of spite. you're being argumentative and this post is off topic and a personal attack and i'd like you to bugger off.

Uh, I was on your side in the Moose thing. It just felt so incongruous seeing a message from you with proper capitalization and then the very next one from you I see, albeit a week later, is back to normal, so I felt moved to comment. Allow me to fill in the spaces and punctuation from the end of my message:

Seriously, just teasing, I have no problems with no caps. My documentation person is the same way except when she's writing documentation. Are vowels really necessary? :)

I thought the smiley made it clear. Didn't mean it to be taken the wrong way, sorry. Or are you pulling my leg since I was pulling yours?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-01-2005 1:21 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-01-2005 1:36 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 306 (213116)
06-01-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mikehager
06-01-2005 1:21 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
God can be all-powerful yet has chosen to give you the choice of belief/disbelief.

Do you fail to see the contradiction? God created me. God is all knowing. God knew when he created the universe that Mike Hager would come into being and that he would see the world and find that it contradicts the existence of God every step of the way. I made that choice, but God set up me and the game full knowing what the outcome would be. I was allowed by God to exist with God's full knowledge that I would, under his rules, be consigned to the pit. No amount of sophistry and apologetics will change that. I was created for no reason other then to be punished.

If your idea of God exists, he did these things and he is cruel. Thankfully, your god does not exist and I need noty worry about it.

What you've left out, as everyone always does, is that He has mercifully and fairly allowed you to learn everything you need to know to save yourself from the pit. You know he's all-powerful, you know he has a definite plan to save some and condemn others, you know how he makes this determination and you have been given every opportunity to reconsider your views.

Therefore you are without excuse if you choose to reject His offer of salvation. You will even recognize yourself that you are personally accountable in the end, when it turns out that he does exist and has given you plenty of time and all the information you need to change direction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:21 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:41 PM Faith has responded
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:43 PM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 2:17 PM Faith has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 10 of 306 (213119)
06-01-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by J. Davis
06-01-2005 8:59 AM


Morality and cruelty are subjective terms. Unless there is an objective standard for morality (and I haven't yet seen Christians give a convincing objective standard for morality -- the whims of the creator are just as arbitrary as anyone else's), then, yes, Christ is immoral and cruel if he violates shrafinator's standards of morality. Or anyone else's. On the other hand, he is not immoral if his conduct is within the standards that you set.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by J. Davis, posted 06-01-2005 8:59 AM J. Davis has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2091 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 306 (213120)
06-01-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
06-01-2005 1:31 PM


i have no idea. i think i'm over sensitive cause everytime i've posted since then, the only reply to my post has been a comment on my continued lack of caps. ignore me. i'm stressed out and on edge of late.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 1:31 PM Percy has not yet responded

mikehager
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 12 of 306 (213124)
06-01-2005 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
06-01-2005 1:33 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
What you've left out, as everyone always does, is that He has mercifully and fairly allowed you to learn everything you need to know to save yourself from the pit. You know he's all-powerful, you know he has a definite plan to save some and condemn others, you know how he makes this determination and you have been given every opportunity to reconsider your views.

I have certainly not left anything out. It's very simple. Given for the moment that God exists, he created me as I am with foreknowledge of my nature. He is responsible for my nature. He is also responsible for every piece of information I recieve and the way in which I process it. So, I was created to be punished. My choice that you emphasize is an illusion. The game was rigged from the get go. Creating a being knowing that you will end up subjecting it to eternal torment is cruel.

I'm sorry that you can't understand or accept this simple reasoning. As It's a good thing none of these fables are true, so I don't have fire and red men with horns poking me with pitchforks for eternity to look forward to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 1:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 1:48 PM mikehager has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 306 (213125)
06-01-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
06-01-2005 1:33 PM


Nothing important left out.
Hi, Faith.

I am going to hit you on the nose unless you believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived. I can tell by the look on your face that you do not believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived, so I am going to hit you on the nose.

Am I being cruel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 1:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 1:50 PM Chiroptera has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 306 (213126)
06-01-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by mikehager
06-01-2005 1:41 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
I understand your reasoning just fine, but you are denying the simple fact that at this very moment you have enough information to change your mind. You insist on a rigid predetermination that is not given in scripture. Jesus calls us to repent and believe, so it's not impossible for you either. He also says it is His own words that will condemn us in the end.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 1:41 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 2:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 23 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 3:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 306 (213127)
06-01-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
06-01-2005 1:43 PM


Re: Nothing important left out.
Hi, Faith.
I am going to hit you on the nose unless you believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived. I can tell by the look on your face that you do not believe that I am the greatest genius that ever lived, so I am going to hit you on the nose.

Am I being cruel?

Perhaps I will give some thought to your credentials before I decide :). I'm sure you can offer some? God has plenty he's offered you know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:43 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2005 1:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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