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Author Topic:   More than flesh and blood?
Recon3rd
Member (Idle past 4096 days)
Posts: 35
Joined: 03-01-2008


Message 1 of 62 (458606)
03-01-2008 7:54 AM


I'm a bit confused. Is there more to a life than flesh and blood? Do living creatures, man included have a spirit/soul or are we just what we see of each other?
Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 03-01-2008 10:14 AM Recon3rd has responded
 Message 4 by fallacycop, posted 03-01-2008 10:26 AM Recon3rd has not yet responded
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Message 2 of 62 (458628)
03-01-2008 10:05 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Larni
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Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 3 of 62 (458629)
03-01-2008 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 7:54 AM


Welcome to EvC, Recon3rd.

No confusion here.

If you can point out a spirit or soul there would be some confusion.

Untill then were is the problem with working with the observable universe without adding extraneous variables whose existance is not established?

Edited by Larni, : Added a welcome: where were my manners?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Recon3rd, posted 03-01-2008 7:54 AM Recon3rd has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 31 by Recon3rd, posted 03-08-2008 7:52 AM Larni has responded

    
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3774 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 4 of 62 (458630)
03-01-2008 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 7:54 AM


I'm a bit confused. Is there more to a life than flesh and blood? Do living creatures, man included have a spirit/soul or are we just what we see of each other?

No body can answer that question for you. Each one of us have to come up with our own answer.


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GDR
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Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5 of 62 (458632)
03-01-2008 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
03-01-2008 10:14 AM


larni writes:

Untill then were is the problem with working with the observable universe without adding extraneous variables whose existance is not established?

There is obviously more than the observable universe. Have you ever observed an emotion? You can see the results or observe activity in the brain, but you can't observe the actual emotion. Have you ever even seen an original thought? Does a thought or an idea have mass or energy?

This doesn't prove that there is a soul but it does demonstrate that there is something about us that is more than flesh and blood.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
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Larni
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Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 6 of 62 (458642)
03-01-2008 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
03-01-2008 10:33 AM


GDR writes:

Have you ever observed an emotion?

I'm a good person to ask about this because I'm a cogntive behavioural therapist by trade so I would say with confidence that I have observed many emotions in clients.

If you could point to the unobservable part of emotion I would be delighted. I would be able to take this new information and rock the core of cbt.

GDR writes:

Does a thought or an idea have mass or energy?

Again I'm a good person for this question because I have participated in studies where my very thoughts were in fact measured.

As the energy spikes in areas of the brain (be it by electrochemical exchange or spikes in metabolism) when (say) we engage in directed thought we can conclude that thoughts have an energy component and therfore mass.

GDR writes:

This doesn't prove that there is a soul but it does demonstrate that there is something about us that is more than flesh and blood.

I think it is fair to say that there is more than flesh and blood, but until you can detect the non-material (directly or indirectly) you can not conclude the non-material exists.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 10 by Hill Billy, posted 03-01-2008 2:35 PM Larni has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 7 of 62 (458652)
03-01-2008 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
03-01-2008 11:23 AM


larni writes:

I'm a good person to ask about this because I'm a cogntive behavioural therapist by trade so I would say with confidence that I have observed many emotions in clients.

If you could point to the unobservable part of emotion I would be delighted. I would be able to take this new information and rock the core of cbt.

Again I'm a good person for this question because I have participated in studies where my very thoughts were in fact measured.

As the energy spikes in areas of the brain (be it by electrochemical exchange or spikes in metabolism) when (say) we engage in directed thought we can conclude that thoughts have an energy component and therfore mass.

One thing for sure, is that we won't have a fight over credentials. I have none. :) I also have a hunch that I'm not going to be rocking any cores.

Isn't what you are observing either by behaviour or in the brain just the result of the emotion or thought? Wouldn't there have to be a trigger to cause the brain activity in the first place to cause the physical reaction? Is that trigger physical?

It seems to me that the brain perceives things like colour, distance etc but it is another thing altogether to cause us to find something beautiful or ugly.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 8 of 62 (458667)
03-01-2008 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
03-01-2008 12:15 PM


GDR writes:

It seems to me that the brain perceives things like colour, distance etc but it is another thing altogether to cause us to find something beautiful or ugly.


What you are describing is the effects/results of certain neural patterns, which are very physical.

Ask yourself this question. Is your operating system in your computer physical? You do realize that it is a combination of binaries written on your harddrive, which is a very physical thing.

Simply put, the operating system is what the those binaries do. The human mind is what the brain does. To attribute it to some kind of metaphysical nonmaterialistic thing is nonsense.

Added by edit.

If there really is such a thing as a soul and that it is independent of the physical brain, then explain why people's personality are different after they've suffered physical brain damage.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
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Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 9 of 62 (458668)
03-01-2008 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 7:54 AM


Do living creatures, man included have a spirit/soul or are we just what we see of each other?

Well, I do find the concept of "soul" or "spirit" useful to describe the phenomenon about which you are speaking, but I don't think the soul is anything more than an emergent property of the complex interactions between the neurons in our brains, nor do I believe that this soul has any permanence after those neurons cease to function.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies
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Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 10 of 62 (458675)
03-01-2008 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
03-01-2008 11:23 AM


More
Larni,

I'm a good person to ask about this because I'm a cogntive behavioural therapist by trade so I would say with confidence that I have observed many emotions in clients.

Would it not be more accurate to say that you observed your clients visible or audible reactions to the emotions they felt, and not the emotions themselves?

I can't help pointing out that I find it extremely humorous that you misspelled both cognitive and behavioral. :)

If you could point to the unobservable part of emotion I would be delighted.

Well, how about what the individual actually feels?

Again I'm a good person for this question because I have participated in studies where my very thoughts were in fact measured.
Your very thoughts or your brain activity?

As the energy spikes in areas of the brain (be it by electrochemical exchange or spikes in metabolism) when (say) we engage in directed thought we can conclude that thoughts have an energy component and therfore mass.

Well, if that activity is the actual thought itself and not a response to that thought..

I think it is fair to say that there is more than flesh and blood, but until you can detect the non-material (directly or indirectly) you can not conclude the non-material exists.
I think the emotion itself is non-material, the reactions this emotion sets off can be observed there by detecting the non-material. Sorry but the actual emotion itself can not be verified directly, can it?


The years tell what the days never knew.
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 62 (458686)
03-01-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hill Billy
03-01-2008 2:35 PM


Re: More
Hill Billy writes:

I can't help pointing out that I find it extremely humorous that you misspelled both cognitive and behavioral.


Um, behavioural and behavioral are both correct.
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4960
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 12 of 62 (458687)
03-01-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
03-01-2008 1:48 PM


Taz writes:

Ask yourself this question. Is your operating system in your computer physical? You do realize that it is a combination of binaries written on your harddrive, which is a very physical thing.

The computer doesn't have original thoughts as such, nor does it have emotions.

Taz writes:

If there really is such a thing as a soul and that it is independent of the physical brain, then explain why people's personality are different after they've suffered physical brain damage.

A brain injury like other injuries causes the body, (in this case the brain) to malfunction. This injury causes deviations from what would be normal reactons. I'm not saying that this is conclusive, I'm just saying that this would be one explanation.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
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Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 13 of 62 (458696)
03-01-2008 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
03-01-2008 3:59 PM


Re: More
Um, behavioural and behavioral are both correct.

OK, I wouldn't be surprised, I seem to bat about 500.


The years tell what the days never knew.
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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1628 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 14 of 62 (458703)
03-01-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hill Billy
03-01-2008 2:35 PM


Re: More
I think the emotion itself is non-material, the reactions this emotion sets off can be observed there by detecting the non-material. Sorry but the actual emotion itself can not be verified directly, can it?

Why must an emotion be any kind of substance, material or other (whatever that means)? Are you sure that you are not confusing processes with things?

Where does the fire go when the fuel runs out?


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 15 of 62 (458732)
03-01-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Recon3rd
03-01-2008 7:54 AM


Spirit? Soul?
Welcome to the forum, Recon3rd!

Do living creatures, man included have a spirit/soul or are we just what we see of each other?

All religions that I'm familiar with believe in a spirit, jiva, atman, ling, shen, kami, or something like it. The only thing that I have difficulty with is that nobody has actually been able to pinpoint a definition for it. Everyone seems to agree that it's "immaterial," but we don't really have a handle on what "immaterial" really means.

None of the definitions for spirit, soul or even "immaterial" can really even rule out the wacky, sci-fi B-movie idea of an insanely-long string of 1's and 0's recorded on the Big Ultra-Supercomputer Databank in the Skies by angels (heavenly computer geeks) eyeballing the whole thing from their observatory in the Andromeda galaxy.

Until we figure out a way to detect things that are immaterial, we can't actually know, per se, whether they exist. Chiroptera has mentioned emergent properties, Larni has mentioned brain activity, and GDR has mentioned perspectives/opinions. Emotions and opinions (as several people have pointed out) seem to be at least somehow correlated with observable, physiological phenomena, and, in many instances, the chemical/synaptic triggers for such responses are actually known. In order for a spirit to exist as the central "mind" of a human, we now know that it is at least heavily influenced by the phsyical body it inhabits, if not just an emergent property of that body.

But, don't take this to mean there isn't a God or spirits or anything (I believe there is). Remember, nobody actually knows what a spirit is, anyway. Maybe it is Chiroptera's "emergent property," or Taz's "neural patterns." The lack of a good definition is generally the reason why scientists don't discuss it. However, the lack of a definition also provides all sorts of weird rationalizations for people struggling with their faith.


Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)
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