Ticket to the Resurrection

As an Agnostic I consider the debate over the existence of a creator-deity to be an exercise in futility. I am content with resting on the fence proclaiming I just don't know. In my personal attempts to answer questions I find it more productive to examine specific religious beliefs that claim to have certain knowledge of God and divine revelation and examine those ideas piece by piece.Often, I find many of the conclusions reached are inconsistent with what we know about reality. At other times the specific beliefs that make up a system of religious thought often appear so arbitrary and contrived that it becomes hard to give them serous consideration. The belief in disembodied souls and the resurrection of the body seem to me to fall in this camp. These are really separate issues and in this post I would like to start with the notion of bodily resurrection as it is presented in many religious systems.The idea for this post stems from a conversation I had with a very good friend of mine who is a devout Catholic. We have had many productive philosophical conversations and recently had a somewhat heated exchange over Catholic Eschatology. When the subject of the resurrection was brought up I asked if those who have been deaf from birth will use sign language when addressing Jesus or will they be able to hear and suddenly understand language?I was told it was a silly question. I advised him to ask his priest. A few weeks later he came back with the answer that the question was without merit- we will be given special 'glorified' bodies. We just don't know what they will be like because we can't comprehend the will of God. So my question was then these new models really wont be our own body but a new design? So why would one need to be buried in a Catholic cemetery? At this point he basically diverted to Thomas Aquinas who chastised excessive curiosity as a detriment to faith.With this in mind it is easy to form a top 10 list of things I always wanted to know about the resurrection but was afraid to ask.-------------------------------------------------------------- When we receive our ticket to the resurrection will we be exhumed with the body we expired with or the one that existed during our most prime and fit period?- Do beer bellies, saggy breasts, and love handles still exist after the resurrection?- If you were deaf for your whole life will you be able to hear and if so will you understand language?- Do the blind get to bring their guide dogs along?- Will the colorblind suddenly see in color?- Do people get to keep their tattoos?- Do women get to keep the breast implants they died with? If not what size breasts will they be given?- What will happen to the Health Channels 900 pound man? Will he still be 900 pounds when he is resurrected and will there be a dolly available to move him around? Or perhaps he will be shrunk to a much more manageable size? If so what body size will he be given?-------------------------------------------------------------My goal is not to ridicule another's belief but to get people to think for themselves about how trivial some popularly held beliefs can be. Within the context of a religious system where the spirit and soul take prominence in the world, the idea of a physical bodily resurrection seems so contradictory and almost comical.The flesh is derided as worldly and corrupt and the spirit exalted. Inexplicably the flesh somehow gets elevated to a status of prominence and priority in the afterlife - it is 'glorified'. Bodily resurrection seems to be contrary to the idea of an eternal and detachable soul and devoid of any real meaning when considered in the context of an eternal spiritual existence.So for those who hold the belief in resurrection how would you respond to this paradox? Why is the flesh derided as worldly and evil in this life but will be glorified and of prime importance in the afterlife? How would you respond to my list of questions?If this topic is promoted and you choose to participate please stay on the subject. Also, please do not turn this into a WWF smackdown or a debate on the existence of God. My goal is simply to try to get people to examine their beliefs closely and respond in turn.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate

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Aside from this, the age, size, weight, gender, etc., of the resurrected body, are uknowns.That is to say, there is no scripture, no revelation, no tradition, that can be turned to for the specifics. It's not really 'inexplicable', it is based on the Bible and Jesus' own resurrection, and prior traditions. Belief in a bodily resurrection has been marching right along beside belief in the corruption of flesh, for quite some time, with no problem. It is purely IN THIS LIFE, and in this world, where Christians see the flesh as corrupt. The correct teaching is that all things were formed in perfection, and must return to perfection. In fact, it is precisely because we believe this world is transient, that we talk about the corruption of the flesh and of the material.You may know that we also teach that the body is sacred, that it is the temple of the soul. Probably only adds to the paradox for you.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Those are relatively minor.Last year I went to memorial of a young lady who died with the development capacity of a 3 month old. When she was young she had an adverse reaction to an immunization and she never developed beyond that point. What about this her?What about the elder whose being and every things you would call a personality disappears?What about the brain injured whose very essence of being is altered because of the trauma?These are some more leaky pipes in the basement of Christian and resurrection theology.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

What about an Alzheimer patient? Will they receive their brain in it's original form, the one before the onset of the disease? Will they know they once were in that state or will they just recall events up to the point of their last coherent memory?I believe the idea for the resurrection arose out of the inability to contemplate an existence outside of the body. Talk of spirits and souls cannot be conceptualized in terms of our corporeal existence. In this regards I believe it may have originated as a literary tool to express these ideas - kind of like an analogy or metaphor.The problem only gets more confusing and arbitrary when the notion of a disembodied soul comes into the picture. That is a topic for another post, however.

I just have always found the idea perplexing and a bit contrived - even growing up as a practicing Catholic. Really, what I am asking is why is the flesh of so importance if the soul will spend eternity with God?In the current Eschatology of most Christian denominations the body is only an intermediary to a final form - the eternal soul.
When a body dies the soul is judged, then transported to a holding place - heaven or hell. At the last judgement the soul is retrieved, placed back in a resurrected body, judged again, then the soul is once again retrieved from the body and sent back to it's final resting spot.So the person is judged twice. Once after death, to decide where to hold it temporarily, then again at the last judgement. Why judge twice? Is it possible the first judgement was wrong?I understand these are your beliefs. Is it possible, however, that Christians or Muslims may find it more practical to find some symbolic or allegorical meaning in the final resurrection? At the very least it will avoid the inconsistency of having two judgements.

But that begs the question - What are souls doing in bodies to begin with, and why are they being switched back and forth at birth, at death, and at the resurrection? If the person is the soul then bodily death is not really dying - the soul(person) simply migrates from being locked in a body to being free of the body.

Don't know if the flesh is important. It's just that all along, people have had different ideas about what happens after death. Christians happen to come from a tradition of bodily resurrection. They further supported this with the belief that Christ rose as human and spirit. If He was God, and kept HIs body, I guess we figure we will too. I don't think all Christians agree about what the Apostles saw after Jesus rose. Augustine I believe was in on that debate, but eventually it was concluded that Jesus was not a mere apparition. Nah, there is supposed to be a personal judgement at death and a 'public' judgement at the end of the world. I guess the best way to explain it is that at the personal judgement we are held accountable, and at the second, we are seperated sheep from goats for eternity. I never thought too much about it. By and large, Catholics try to maintain orthodoxy, with no one straying too far from what is revealed, or making things up as they go along. The doctrines define boundaries, but they don't necessarily fill in all of the gaps.

Nah, it's still the soul which is important. Just as it is housed and untouchable in this life, it can be housed in the next in a new body.Why couldn't the soul of someone with a brain injury continue on, and if it could, does it matter in which body it goes?

But the claim is our own bodies will be resurrected - it doesn't say we will receive a new body. If we will receive new bodies that have nothing to do with our old one then our bodies really don't get resurrected. The conclusion can only be there is no resurrection after all - there are simply souls being placed into new bodies that get created.

So basically you believe the period from death to the resurrection is just a holding period for the soul? The condemned will be freed from the flames for a few minutes, put back into a body for a public judgement, then disembodied once again only to find themselves where they started?.I can understand people believing in a mind/body dualism and a soul, but all this jumping about and switching back and forth sounds way over the top and contrived, not to mention contradictory.

Hi Grizz, Jesus had a body that was recognized by His disciples, He ate food, walked through doors, and could just appear.But when He appears we will be like Him. I don't know where you get 2 judgments from my Bible only teaches 1: Enjoy

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ICANT,But where does the Soul go when it dies? Does it dissapear for a while until the resurrection, or is it judged by God and sent to Heaven or Hell to be held for the final judgement?

Well I guess the question is then what is soul?Do you think of the soul in terms of the personality, self-awareness together with the memory which really makes who you are. If these don't exist in the after-life does it really matter if you are in heaven, hell or purgatory as you couldn't really tell anyway.

The soul is that same essence which makes it impossible and wrong for you to rob a person of life, or not to recognize their status as human, and the dignity of that status.If we truly felt it was our memory, self-awareness, and personality which makes us who we are, i.e., human...well, we would be back there in time when the mentally ill, the less intelligent, or the brain-dead were considered disposable. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.