Let us reason together.

I excepted the Lord Jesus on 12/20/00. He's totally changed my life. I was addicted to drug's and alcohol for 7 years. I would be a professional musician right now but I gave it up. To know the King of kings is greater than all thins. I am 23 and I am now a new person, a new creation. I hated life. I hated my father and wanted to murder him. I'm shure many can relate. I now have a peace and joy that can only be from the Almighty. The world has made Him into a clown but He is who He is. You can bring all the archaeology to man or science, but truly it is the darkness in our hearts. Our sin. That is what seperates us from Him. I struggled my whole life with the question, "How can a God of love allow evil?" Child abuse, death, etc. Its because of sin. Man's sin alone. Now I see that acording to the Bible which I believe is the only absolute that the eternal living God created everything perfectly about 6,000 years ago. It was very good. There was no sin, so no death. For the wages of sin is death. Man was created in the image of God. God created him with the ability to do good or evil and with an eternal purpose. Man turned from God and wanted to be like God. Because God is Holy and Just He brought His just judgement on the earth and through the centuries man has continued in sin. We all have. 2,000 years ago God who is three (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) emptied himself and became man and the sin of the world was placed on Him at the cross and was raised from the dead and is at the right hand of the Father calling us all. God is not a religion but the Ancient of Days. He is spirit, not material. He is not far from us. He was crushed, He was bruised and He was torn apart for our sin. Let's be truthful here. We all have sinned and fallen short. I have been desperately wicked. But He is so loving and full of grace and mercy and not wanting anyone to perish. If we will only humble ourselves and repent and receive Him into our hearts and lives. All through the existence of man they have tried to prove that there was no intelligence in the beginning. They will not. Let us be wise and turn to Him and His love. One day He will make a new heaven and a new earth. The prophecies and the sign of the times are evident of His return. Look at Ezekiel 37. Israel after 2,000 years became a nation in 1948. And that is just one. A thief in the night He will return like. The truth will set you free friends not just going to church, or rituals or saying I believe there is some kind of God. Buddha, Allah, etc. did not die for our sin. Can any of you truly believe when you look at a monkey it is your ancestor?[This message has been edited by drummachine, 01-27-2003]

Moving this from "Evolution" forum to "Faith and Belief" forum.Also, I note that so far you have posted 2 messages (at least as a registered member). Both were starting new topics.I hope you are going to post some messages, other than just starting topics.Adminnemooseus------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}

As I see it, Drum's post depicts the only reason why creationism only appears in Christianity. Their whole religious wager hangs on the chain of Adam's Fall--Christ on the Cross--Redemption. Archaeology and science renders the first link questionable. Those with the threatened investment would go to absurd lengths to ensure that they somehow might still gain profit in their so-called Kingdom of God.How can a God of love [btw my theology emphasizes a God of justice--TB is right when he calls Him a legalistic God] allow evil? Well, evil itself was IMHO a creation of man. Nature knows no evil, nor any value judgements; all of these were invented by man. There is no such thing as an original sin; Adam and his wife were forgiven after they were banished to Earth.Your Bible talks about creation 6000 years ago; or is it? Wasn't it Archbishop Ussher who pinpointed the date of creation? Are you holding a fallible man's words as infallible? I thought your absolute is God, not Ussher.Why would anyone die for our sins? I also believe in a judgement in the future where I will be held accountable for everything I have done; why does one even bother about a final judgement if s/he's no longer responsible for her/his actions? Why bother doing good works/avoiding sin if somebody had agreed to take the punishment for you?And yes, if I happen to see a monkey today, I don't consider it my ancestor [it is probably younger than me, anyway]. I consider it a distant relative. Same goes to the termites I study. Our common ancestors are long dead, but not until they leave descendants.

Just out of curiousity, was there anything of particular substance in that post that you'd like to discuss relating to evolution vs creationism (like, evidence for a perfect world specially created 6000 years ago, the difference between "common ancestor" and "descent from monkeys", etc)?

MISTAKE! SORRY![This message has been edited by drummachine, 01-30-2003]

I struggled with God's love in this world my whole life. Why all the pain and suffering? Man is desperately wicked. Now I understand that He has a perfect plan. He has spoken in His word about everything in life. If He gave us all the information there would be an infinite amount of books. If God did not give man the ability to choose between good and evil, we would be puppets. Sin entered into a perfect world. When I look at a monkey I dont see Grandpa. Evolution to me is not science. It truly means, man is God. We can just prove there was no inteligence in the beginning. They have not proven anything anyways. We have never seen dog change into non-dog and we will never see that my friends. I would ask someone who believes in evolution for a simple proof. Not a long scientific statement. The God of the Bible claims to be the true God and the only God over 3,000 times. Look at the prophecy in the Bible. Search and you will find numerous prophecies fulfilled. Look at the archaeology being found every day. It truly is a heart problem. Man says, "Give me evidence! Give me proof! Give me a sign!" God is spirit. He says come to me, repent, receive eternal life and let me reveal myself to you. I am a new Christian by the way. A little over two years now. I have peace and joy in life. No anxiety, no worries. The pain and hatred have been destroyed. Were a broken human race. When you receive Him and your sin is nailed to the cross then your are truly free. He convicts our hearts every day. It says in Romans 1 the things of God are clearly seen and man is without excuse. He bore that suffering on the cross for us all. He is the God of love. When a man hurts his child blame the man. He has spoken how He brought everything into existence. Proof of a global flood? For starter's there are marine fossils on mountains like Mt. Everest. No man was there in the past. No one can accurately age date the earth. Assumptions? Jesus Christ said come to me all who labor and I will give you rest. Its about God's grace and mercy that changes people's heart's, not a set of religious rules. Christ took the place of man on the cross because our sin, not His. We dont fully understand how a sovereign God works. We can have a million PHD's or whatever and we cannot even come close to God's understanding. Even though man will keep on trying.

Soooo, I can take it the answer to my question... ... is "No.", then?

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When I look at a monkey I dont see Grandpa. Evolution to me is not science. It truly means, man is God.

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My head spins. Wasn't it you Christians who said that a man is God? No evolutionist I encounter ever explicitly say that man is God. On the contrary, many Christians I encounter said that God became man. Oh. All this Imago Dei theology is evolution? Give me some headache pills.

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We have never seen dog change into non-dog and we will never see that my friends. I would ask someone who believes in evolution for a simple proof.

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A non-dog change into many breeds of dogs, which if shown to a naturalist and labeled 'wild animals' he would definitely assign them to different species ('Canis dobermanni...Canis chihuahuanensis...[i]Canis sancta-bernardi[/]...'). The non-dog is a wolf. That simple enough?Any reference to created kinds and I'll have to force you to define its boundaries.

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Proof of a global flood? For starter's there are marine fossils on mountains like Mt. Everest. No man was there in the past. No one can accurately age date the earth.

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I leave these to the geologists.

[quote]A non-dog change into many breeds of dogs, which if shown to a naturalist and labeled 'wild animals' he would definitely assign them to different species ('Canis dobermanni...Canis chihuahuanensis...[i]Canis sancta-bernardi[/]...'). The non-dog is a wolf. That simple enough?[/quote]This is great, Andya. The truth is that "dog" and "wolf" shouldn't be considered different species, since fertile backcrosses occur in nature. Wolves and dogs share 99%+ the same genomes. Here's a good site discussing wolf-dog hybridization Wolf-Dog Hybrids, which includes some of the genetics. It appears that it should be Canis lupus dobermanni . Now, my question is, if we are strictly adhering to the biological species concept, would some DOG breeds be considered different species? Anyone know of a "natural" cross between a chihuaha and a great dane (say, living in the same house)?

Anyone know of a "natural" cross between a chihuaha and a great daneNow there's a thought

Drummachine (808, 909?)With all respect, you sound exactly like every single newborn Christian I have met or listened to. You say exactly the same lines. You repeat the same passages. You exhibit no personality or individualism. You sound like a drone reciting lines that were once drilled into your head by the newborn who converted you.You are the reason that so many people are put off religion, just like the stereotypical image of the mad Frankenstein scientist in his stone-wall laboratory puts people off science.You were once a drug addict who wanted to kill his father, your life was a mess (newborn's always seem to be ex-convicts/druggies/murderers) and now everything's peachy. Great. But don't go around making out that everyone else's lives are empty and shameful just because of your crappy past. It's damn offensive.Remember, you're the one who used to be a drug addict with social problems, not us. So don't make out you're better than us.

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I would ask someone who believes in evolution for a simple proof. Not a long scientific statement

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Sorry. Science doesn't do proof.However...The human genome contains the gene for synthesizing vitamin C. However, it is broken and doesn't work, which is why we need to have it in our diet.We share this broken gene with the great apes, but not with other animals. Cats and dogs, for example, have a working version.The evolutionary explanation for this is that we inherited the broken version from our ancestors, some time before the lineage between us and the great apes split. Before that, our ancestors' gene worked.What is the creationist explanation for this? Why did God create us with this not quite working gene? Why did He give a gene with the same faults to the apes? Why a working one to the cats and dogs and mice?

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Can any of you truly believe when you look at a monkey it is your ancestor?

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Monkeys aren't our ancestors.Monkeys and humans share a common ancestor.Oh, your beliefs are all well and good, and I am glad you are happier now, but why reject all of modern Biology?You obviously don't know much, if anything, about the Theory of Evolution, so why reject it before you understand it?Do you believe that your God/Jesus really wants you to remain ignorant of science?

I am an Atheist. I have been since the age of 14.
I have never taken drugs. I have never committed any crime (except exceeding the speed limit). I enjoy a beer or glass of port, but have never been drunk. I am happily married and have never been unfaithful to my wife.
So why should I turn to Christianity to lead a good life? My Atheism has it all, and still permits me the freedom to think for myself.
All I am missing is the conviction that I have the ONE TRUTH and all others are in error and need saving.
Mike.

Very nice, Karl, especially from a Christian who "cannot think for himself."-Shiloh[This message has been edited by shilohproject, 01-30-2003]