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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Lie?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 65 (434046)
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


In the Bible it states,
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Now it has probably been mentioned here more than once,however, the question has never been directly asked in a topic.
If "nothing shall be impossible" to those with even small faith, then why are there never examples of such events as the healing of amputees severed limbs? Or the regeneration of eyes lost to accident?
Since regeneration of a physically removed part of the human body has never been shown to occur and since Christians with even a small amount of faith are guaranteed by the messiah himself to be able to do so, my question are the following ones.
Is it a moral obligation on your part to do that which you are capable of doing ,in Christs name,or not? If your faith actually is based in reality and you believe that the words of Christ are true, then why do Christians not perform impossible feats every day?
Why is faith in the performance of works that benefit mankind and that are completely impossible to fake or mistake or be a lie not a primary statement of Christian principles?
I maintain that it is not done because it cannot be done because it is impossible. Is there no amount of Christians on Earth reading these pages that will step up to the plate and do that which the central figure that they claim to believe in emphatically states they are capable of doing?
To perform these events would change my mind in a heartbeat. So let us begin to ask of you to show that you have something real as opposed to nothing at all. Have all your most spiritual leaders participate in a one time event broadcast live for all the world to witness the healing of someone of a physical, visibly missing part of their body. Surely a collection of the leaders of your "Christian Nation" can muster up faith the size of a mustard seed between them and end this charade once and for all in their favour. I can guarantee that any of you will invoke some squirm tactic to absolve yourself of the direct assertion that JESUS CHRIST himself made.
Prove me wrong.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
Edited by sidelined, : Changed title to more appropriate context

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by TheWay, posted 11-14-2007 9:29 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 5 by pelican, posted 11-15-2007 8:28 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2007 1:55 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 2:28 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 3:39 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 48 by riVeRraT, posted 11-21-2007 8:23 AM sidelined has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 65 (434050)
11-14-2007 3:31 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 65 (434088)
11-14-2007 12:25 PM


Bump to bring this to the attention of any Christians that may be inclined to answer

  
TheWay
Junior Member (Idle past 5845 days)
Posts: 27
From: Oklahoma City, Ok
Joined: 08-21-2007


Message 4 of 65 (434198)
11-14-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


Hello Sidelined Great question.
If "nothing shall be impossible" to those with even small faith, then why are there never examples of such events as the healing of amputees severed limbs? Or the regeneration of eyes lost to accident?
I wouldn't say there are "never" any examples, I would like to interject that you personally have not seen or heard of any. I am strapped for time now, but I will come back with some examples later so don't close this thread, thanks!

"Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing." --Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 5 of 65 (434279)
11-15-2007 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."
I don't suppose this was meant to be taken literally. Has anyone a metaphorical view on this? Maybe the mustard seed is representative of the atom as splitting that shifted a few mountains. Maybe it means that we should look to do the impossible. Haven't we done it many times throughout history?
We can make it mean anything we want it to mean and just maybe, jesus was full of it, who knows?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 65 (434313)
11-15-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by pelican
11-15-2007 8:28 AM


Heinrik
I don't suppose this was meant to be taken literally.
Well the phrase at this point here: "ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove;" Seems hard to envisage as a metaphor since it is rather specific in the action to be taken {"say"} related to the result of the action said movement of the mountain.
Now if the metaphor contained a time element that described the action occurring over years ,for instance, then we could assume a metaphor related to hard work paying dividends over time yet this is not the case here.
It is a direct response by Jesus to the unbelieving people when asked about the "miracle" he invoked upon removing a demon from a child why he could perform the "miracle" and they could not. Clearly the point of the verse is to say that if you have even a little faith then these things are possible to anyone who simply asks for it.
Since the claim by Christians is that Christ was correct in speaking this way then the plain fact of the matter is that if a Christian with just a little faith commands a feat to be accomplished then it will be done. As I have said, the healing of an amputee cannot be faked nor any sleight of hand or use of suggestion employed to fool the audience .My challenge remains. On national TV employ the capability, that is stated by the head of the entire religion that Christians ascribe to,Christ himself, insisted was yours by dint of faith alone and heal a person with an injury requiring regeneration of a body part that is missing in the first place.
As I have said prove me wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 7 of 65 (434339)
11-15-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


Re-Faith of a grain of mustard seed
Hi sidelined,
Jesus himself answered your question.
sidelined writes:
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
I maintain that it is not done because it cannot be done because it is impossible. Is there no amount of Christians on Earth reading these pages that will step up to the plate and do that which the central figure that they claim to believe in emphatically states they are capable of doing?
It is not that it is impossible. It is because no one has the faith required to accomplish the tasks.
As you are aware the word "IF" is one of the biggest words in the english language.
Jesus did qualify our being able to do the things you would like to see Christians do.
Consider the mustard seed it is very small but when planted and it germinates it makes a large plant compared to its size.
Jesus said if I had that much faith I could do all the things you think I am supposed to be able to do. But the problem is that I do not even have enough faith to save me from eternal damnation. Therefore I have to depend on the Faith of Jesus Christ Himself that He has in the promise of His Father to save me if I trust in Jesus to save me from my sins. Much is made of faith and belief in Christianity. But to me having faith in Jesus is the same as when I go to the airport and get on a plane to go somewhere. At that moment I am putting my life in the hands of the pilot and co-pilot and the mechanical ability of the aircraft to get me to my destination. When I put my faith in Jesus I am putting my soul in the hands of Jesus and trusting Him to get me to my final destination.
sidelined, you are absolutly correct in assuming that I should be able to heal the lame, raise the dead, ask God to blind you and Him do those things. The problem is that you do not know God or the way that God works. I will let you in on a little secret, God will never give you the sign that you demand in order for you to believe in Him.
Jesus said:
Matt 12:39 (KJS) But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I am truly sorry that I cannot give you a sign but there will be none.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2007 4:00 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 19 by iceage, posted 11-16-2007 2:07 AM ICANT has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 65 (434342)
11-15-2007 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
Re mustard seeds, how many things are untrue here:
Mark 4:31-32
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Had Jesus ever seen a mustard plant?
I think I know what type of plant Jesus was into.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 3:35 PM Brian has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 65 (434352)
11-15-2007 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
11-15-2007 2:28 PM


Re: Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
Mark 4:31-32
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Had Jesus ever seen a mustard plant?
Jesus was not saying that the mustard plant, in general, is a big tree. He even refers to it, rightly, as an herb in that passage. But the mustard seed in this parable is like the kingdom of god, so unlike the other mustard plants, it grows into a big tree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 2:28 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (434354)
11-15-2007 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2007 2:59 AM


One thing I think you've failed to consider is the whole "testing god" thingy.
People with enough faith could move a mountain, but if they are doing it to test for god, then it won't work.
Yeah its pretty much a cop-out.
But then too, Jesus says that nothing will be impossible if you have the faith. So even testing god should be possible if we read it literally enough.
Personally, I think Jesus was speaking figuratively in this passage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2007 2:59 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2007 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 65 (434361)
11-15-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
11-15-2007 1:55 PM


Re: Re-Faith of a grain of mustard seed
ICANT
It is not that it is impossible. It is because no one has the faith required to accomplish the tasks.
What a copout that is!
In a previous thread you made the following list.
I do not doubt God.
I do not doubt Jesus came.
I do not doubt Jesus died on the cross for my sins and everybody else's.
I do not doubt Jesus was crucified.
I do not doubt Jesus was buried.
I do not doubt Jesus came forth from the grave.
I do not doubt Jesus was seen at least 7 times by apostles after his
Resurrection.
I do not doubt Jesus ascended into heaven.
I do not doubt Jesus is coming again soon.
I do not doubt Jesus is going to judge the quick and the dead.
I do not doubt that everyone whose name is not written in the book of
Life will be cast into the lake of fire.
I do not doubt that most of you will think this is silly and rubbish.
I do not doubt that what I believe makes any difference to anybody
but me and my God.
I think your faith is well established here my friend so I think you are bullshitting to avoid dealing with the matter being impossible because there is no validity to it in the first place. You believe miracles occurred yet you claim that you doubt it as well. Make up your bloody mind.
Thus your sentence, "It is not that it is impossible. It is because no one has the faith required to accomplish the tasks." is invalidated.
The problem is that you do not know God or the way that God works. I will let you in on a little secret, God will never give you the sign that you demand in order for you to believe in Him.
No God exists except in the realm of people's mind so I am certain that no sign will ever be forthcoming.
I just want the rest of you to realize that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2007 1:55 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 11-15-2007 6:48 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2007 11:00 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 65 (434363)
11-15-2007 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2007 3:39 PM


Catholic Scientist
Personally, I think Jesus was speaking figuratively in this passage.
I hardly think this to be the case since the point of the verse was to admonish unbelievers to the very thing they had witnessed concerning the rebuking of the demon. In other words he is saying that if you just say for it to happen it will happen. Speak and the deed will be done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 3:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 12:32 PM sidelined has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 65 (434365)
11-15-2007 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2007 3:35 PM


Re: Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
But the mustard seed in this parable is like the kingdom of god, so unlike the other mustard plants, it grows into a big tree.
You know what is weird, my Bible says exactly the opposite to what you are saying here.
You say that the mustard plant is like the Kingdom of God, but my Bible says
"And he said, Where unto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
So, you have it completely the wrong way round, Jesus DID NOT liken the mustard plant to the kingdom of God, He likened the Kingdom of God to the Mustard plant, and if you have ever seen a mustard plant you will know how small and thin that is.
Good try though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 5:39 PM Brian has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (434380)
11-15-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
11-15-2007 4:24 PM


Re: Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
Good try though.
Horribly reply... Are you trying to misunderstand what I'm saying?
Jesus DID NOT liken the mustard plant to the kingdom of God, He likened the Kingdom of God to the Mustard plant,
I read the passage and know what it says.
If X is like Y then Y is like X, no?
"And he said, Where unto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Question to Jesus: What is the kingdom like?
Jesus' Answer: It is like a mustard see that grows into a big tree instead of growing into a small herb.
So, you have it completely the wrong way round, Jesus DID NOT liken the mustard plant to the kingdom of God, He likened the Kingdom of God to the Mustard plant
Well duh! Do you think I'm illiterate or a complete moron?
and if you have ever seen a mustard plant you will know how small and thin that is.
Right, but if the mustard seed is like the kingdom of god then it would grow into a big tree instead of a small herb.
It really isn't difficult to understand unless you try not to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 4:24 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 65 (434416)
11-15-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
11-15-2007 4:00 PM


Mustard Seed Faith
Regardless of what ICANT wrote in another thread, his answer is correct if you read the passage.
Matthew 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
The verse implies that if one is unable to accomplish the task as the disciples were unable to, then the person doesn't have enough faith. IOW, no matter how much faith one claims or feels they have, the proof is in the actions. If they can't do it, then they don't have faith the size of a mustard seed.
Sorta like when we say that something is so easy that a child or monkey can do it. Implying that those who can't do the task aren't very smart or capable, etc. It doesn't really mean that a monkey or child could actually do the task.
Supposedly the consensus position is that the author of Matthew was not the apostle who knew Jesus. Early Christian Writings
Given that and the possibility that the Book of Matthew was written as a satire, the statement is probably pointing at the religious practice of blaming an individual's lack of faith for what goes wrong or doesn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2007 4:00 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2007 8:06 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 18 by iceage, posted 11-16-2007 1:49 AM purpledawn has replied

  
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