Agnosticism and Origins

Another good friend of mine has started leaning towards agnosticism recently. I talked with her yesterday for a long time about it, and I realized we really aren't different in our ways of thinking about things. The only big difference between us is that I still question evolution and she accepts it wholeheartedly. I believe the Bible is true, and she does not. She tried to reject evolution for a long time, but in the end had to accept it. It seems like this opened the door for doubt even though now she says evolution is not a problem for the existence of God. She really wants to believe in God, but is not sure she can anymore.I am not far from her position. However, I know that believing in evolution and rejecting the flood is the ONLY thing that would potentially cause me to become an agnostic like her. I hold no arguments specifically against God's existence. But belief in evolutionary origins and absence of the flood might cause me to doubt everything I've ever accepted as true from the Bible.I cannot begin to describe all the different arguments floating around in my mind relating to origins. I don't know if I can ever irrefutably validate any of them on my own. I can't trust myself to find the right answer. Since I don't know FOR SURE what the truth is about our origins, I am neutral. And since I am neutral about origins, I am neutralized as a believer. Now that I'm stuck in neutral its going to take a lot to kick me back into drive. I MUST know what the truth is. We have to know where we've come from to know where we're going.To all the agnostics out there, answer me these questions so I'll understand your position a little better:What was the biggest thing that caused you stop believing in God?
When did you stop believing in God?
When did you start believing in evolution?
Do you think God: a) probably does not exist b) probably does exist c) is unknowable d) it doesn't matter
If God should exist, how would you feel about him?Any comments about mine or my friend's position? moved by The Queen

When you get to that point, you might want to start a thread on Theistic Evolutionists.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi Dawg, welcome backTo answer your questions first, I will say that evolution had nothing to do with my being an agnostic. I accepted evolution when I thought myself to be a Christian, when I felt more in tune with new age beliefs, and now that I don't know if anything is out there.What was the biggest thing that caused you to stop believing in God?I tried to answer this question in an essay here on my website. I hope this answers some of your questions. If not, please ask.When did you stop believing in God?That is hard to say. It was a long slow process. I started out believing I was Christian. When I realized that I couldn't keep trying to convince myself of Xianity, I still believed in god, just not a Xian god. It has only been the past few years that I finally realized that I didn't really have a belief in ANY version of god.When did you start believing in evolution?I have always been science minded and always "believed" that evolution was how things happened. As I got older and started actually reading and researching things I came to "accept" that evolution was the best model available at this time.Do you think God: a), b), c), d)C. I am relatively atheistic as far as the Judeo/Christian concept of god, but I am agnostic as to ANY concept of god. I don't think the answer IS knowable.If God should exist, how would you feel about him?This question needs some clarifying. Which concept of god are you talking about?I'll answer more if you have any questions.

---

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Having never really been a believer in any sense that you would think was correct I can't help with your main question.However, have you noticed the possibility that someone starting from Biblical literalism is in somewhat more danger of losing faith when exposed to the real world than someone who takes a more mature view of the real meanings in the Bible?This is one reason the majority of Christians might take as great or greater umbrage with the literalists than non-believers might.There is, in my mind (but one that doesn't understand the believer mind set very well), no reason to lose your faith over simple scientific facts. That is just a nasty consequence of the lies put forward by the political movement that dresses up in theological clothes.

Hangdawg,It is important to note that the scientific method and its related discoveries doesn't make someone either athiest or agnostic. For example, both my wife and I have studied the theory of evolution. My wife is a devout christian, and finds no problems maitaining her faith and keeping an open mind to scientific endevours. However, she will quickly point out that the bible is not a literal account of the world, and that many of the stories are allegories. I, on the other hand, am an athiest and have been since my teenage years. My loss of faith didn't come from any type of science, but from a critical mindset. Throughout my life, I have never experienced the divine, nor the supernatural. I also found that most of the reasons given for the existance of a diety are based on emotional responses and not evidentiary support. I also disagreed with alot of the moral and ethical framework of christianity. Over several years, I became agnostic, and eventually moved towards strong atheism.

When I realized that I was talking to myself during prayer. At the end of junior year in high school. At the end of senior year. I'm going to go with (d) on this one. Huh? For a starter, I would bitch about all the miseries he had allowed to happen in man's history. Yes. See, this is your problem. You need to stop wanting to know everything about everything before you could take a step back and see how rediculous this is.I know that you are on your way to becoming a mechanical engineer (my brother in law got a Ph. D. in that by the way). You have said many times before that your view of biological organisms are very similar to mechanical things. You have also stated before that this ultimately led you to believe that there had to be a designer for living things, like a designer for a bulldozer or a tank.But, even the best mechanical engineer out there would have to say "I don't know" if he is asked a question like "how do we build a machine that can take us from here to a planet 3 thousand light years away in 2 seconds?"You need to realize that science is doing its best to find out where the heck everything came from and how the natural laws work. We do not know everything now, but that doesn't mean that we should automatically resort to "goddunit" explanation.What am I getting at? You want the truth handed to you on a silver platter. It ain't going to happen! Instead of resorting to "goddunit" theology, why not help the rest of us discover some of the truth out there? Why not help us uncover the truth bits by bits? Resorting to the bible and the "goddunit" explanation will definitely not help mankind progress.Afterall, if god exists at all, why would he want you to say "goddunit" all the time yet gave you a brain that is capable to investigate natural phenomena? Why created a whole universe out there for us to uncover if all he wants us to do is worship him and stay in the dark ages? Why created the atom if he never intended for us to discover it? Why created the universal constants if he only wants us to read the bible and prepare ourselves for eternal bliss (I'm talking about heaven)?If there is a god and you help mankind uncover some of the secrets of the natural world, then I highly doubt that he is going to send you to hell for not eating the bible literally.If there is no god and you've been bible thumping your way through life, then you would have wasted your human curiosity and condemn your children to a life of ignorance.Think about it. Is your god just or not?

---

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current. For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

I can reconcile evolution with the Bible though it may or may not have some important philosphical implications, which would end up being subjective anyway.I do think the flood was a literal event... and there is SOOOoo much we still don't know. It seems incredibly foolish to me to believe the current paradigm is worth placing one's full faith in.

The realistation that I'd have to tell lies to myself for the bible to make sense. I think I was around 14 Science is not a matter of belief I have a c/d please - clearly not the christian god anyway if he was like the christian god I'd hate him, otherwise not sure

Thank you for your reply.So it seems like you decided against the Christian God because the attributes ascribed to Him as you understood them were "internally inconsistent". That seems to be the cause of most peoples' unbelief, so since I have already dealt with all of these so-called inconsistencies and concluded that God is great then I guess I could never become an agnostic even if I were to believe in evolution and a mythical flood. I am talking about the Christian God. If you were able to be 100% sure that He exists, how would you feel about him?

I believe that every word and grammatical structure in the Bible is there for a reason just like everything else in the universe. It is there for "doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness..."I believe everything is there to teach us a lesson and enlighten us to truth, sometimes on many levels. Obviously some things in the Bible are not literal events. However, it is hard to not recognize the flood as a literal event. Since I have no other reason to question God's existence than this, you may be right. However, its a little more complicated than just contradictory information.

Thank you for your reply. This has never problem to me as I can see how it all makes sense. I can't help it. I'm not satisfied with anything less than the compelete truth and meaning. Goddunit IS the only hypothesis ever put forth to explain the existence of reality. I believe "goddunit". I just want to know the truth of how He did it. If you do not believe there is a God, then what is truth for us to find? Why is this reality real? And why care if mankind progresses? There is no meaning to anything without God nor is there an explanation for the existence of reality without God. His creation is practically infinitely complex and amazing, and I am never opposed to understanding more about it. That's what it all boils down to in the end I guess. Since I have never doubted His justice and see no reason to, I assume I can never become an agnostic or atheist. That's what history is about according to the Bible: proving God's character and glory to his creations, so you really hit the nail on the head.

Thank you for your reply. I see a pattern developing. Everyone except Ned seems to reject the Christian God as being in some way the opposite of good.What about you Ned? Do you have a particular aversion to the Christian God based on his character? or do you just see no particular reason to believe in a god?

Just to clarify something - I DO NOT reject the christian god because he is the opposite of Good. I reject him because he's not real. The good/evil thing is something I thought about years later...This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-17-2004 03:22 AMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-17-2004 03:36 AM

This is where we part in our ideas about life. My curiosity gives me strength and the drive to explore new possibilities.You automatically assumed that there is no meaning if there is no god. I wholeheartedly do not agree.Don't tell me you are not curious at all about what's out there (no, I don't just mean the possibility of ET). Don't tell me you are not at all curious about the kinds of subatomic particles that make up the universe.These are some of the things that give meanings to my life. Before we find out everything, I'm going to leave blank spots in my mind just so there will be space for new and unexpected things.Why do I criticize the christian fundie so much? They refuse to leave any blank spot at all. Anything that is new, regardless of good or bad, is rejected. Heck, they used to even burned people for having new ideas... getting off-topic.Anyhow, if it makes you happy to think that the "goddunit" explanation is the best we can do, have a good life!

---

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current. For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

Just would like to point this out: This is a loaded question - it assumes that TOE is something that must be believed in order to exist/be valid.Hangdawg13, you may want to draw the line between Religion and Science a little darker.

---

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"