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Author Topic:   Why This Belief?
BostonD
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 111 (212876)
05-31-2005 4:22 PM


I've read a lot of posts where people describe their belief and how they've had such a moving experience. I understand that people have had a strong experience with Christianity and Jesus, but that doesn't mean you can logically feel that it is right or true.
Many people of other religions have had equally powerful experiences and connections with their holy books, priests, or Gods... if you believe the bible literally or if you truly believe that Jesus was the son of God, then you are in direct contradiction with other religions who have an equal claim on "truth" as you do.
Given that, how do you go on believing what you do? Faith? How can one version of faith be better than another??
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 06-01-2005 08:36 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 05-31-2005 4:25 PM BostonD has replied
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 06-01-2005 3:12 AM BostonD has replied
 Message 77 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2005 8:04 AM BostonD has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 111 (212878)
05-31-2005 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by BostonD
05-31-2005 4:22 PM


Relative truth or absolute truth?
It all depends on whether you believe that truth is a relative concept to each individual or each faith versus believing that truth is an absolute value or reality. Jesus said that He was the Truth..the way...and the Life. No man came to the Father except through Him. If He was in fact God incarnate, it would not matter if there were a hundred other religions. It would not matter if there were a hundred other prophets. If Jesus was and is God incarnate, He truly is the only way!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BostonD, posted 05-31-2005 4:22 PM BostonD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by BostonD, posted 05-31-2005 4:37 PM Phat has not replied
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 Message 5 by mikehager, posted 05-31-2005 5:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
BostonD
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 111 (212881)
05-31-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
05-31-2005 4:25 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
I understand your point, and I am certainly not set out to look negatively upon religion. I don't really know how to speak in terms of relative or absolute "truth". To me information is reliable if it can be deduced logically and is supported by evidence that is tangible. If evidence is not availabe now, it can be systematically pursued. In the case of religion, no experiment or repeatable observation can lead to the conclusion that Jesus is the son of God. One may conclude that God exists based on philosophical argument but then you must concede that there are also equally believable philosophical arguments against his existence.
In the case of competing religions. Jesus proclaims He is the son of God... Ra is known the be the sun God, God of all Gods... Zeus is the king of the Gods... the Quran says that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God. To me believing any is like making an arbitrary choice.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4 of 111 (212886)
05-31-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
05-31-2005 4:25 PM


The way, the truth and the life
John 14:6 writes:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I was just thinking about that before I saw this topic.
I don't see that verse as talking about the "only" way. BostonD likes things logical, so let's look at it this way:
"I am (the way, the truth and the life)."
By simple substitution:
"No man cometh unto the father, but by (the way, the truth and the life)."
I don't see any indication that Jesus is the only way, the only truth or the only life. (Any help from the Greek scholars in our midst?)

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 05-31-2005 4:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 5 of 111 (212890)
05-31-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
05-31-2005 4:25 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
If Jesus was and is God incarnate, He truly is the only way!
What if he wasn't? What if he were a successful religious con man who managed to bilk a lot of people and did it so well that people continue to be bilked 2000 years later? We can't know. There is no evidence for Christ's divinity or his being a con man.
Why do you choose to believe in him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 05-31-2005 4:25 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-01-2005 12:29 AM mikehager has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 111 (212961)
06-01-2005 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mikehager
05-31-2005 5:28 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
I don't think Jesus was a con man because he didn't gain anything from the con, and he allowed himself to be crucified seemingly defeating the purpose of a con.
I believe that Jesus spoke so much truth (about the way you should live your life, etc.) that I can believe everything that he said, including being the son of god.
I also feel like I got called back to Jesus (after a short bit of atheism), so when you say:
There is no evidence for Christ's divinity
keep in mind that you have no evidence but there could be evidence for other. Its too bad, for you, that this evidence cannot be substantiated, but then, that would make it all too easy and rid life of "the most potent element of human existance" ... faith.
non-shaded quote from System of a Down "Science"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mikehager, posted 05-31-2005 5:28 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 7 of 111 (212976)
06-01-2005 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BostonD
05-31-2005 4:22 PM


The question is Why Belief, and then more to the point; why Christianity instead of something else.
I guess before I can answer Why Belief I’ll have to outline just what it is that I believe.
I became a Christian because after many years of not considering the question I came to conclusion that the Christianity at its core was true. I believe that the Bible is truthful, but not necessarily literally true. My understanding of ancient Hebrew literature is that most writing was metaphorical. When you read the New Testament it seems that the bulk of Christ’s teachings were by parable. (Actually having said that I find it very interesting that the first chapter of Genesis very closely parallels evolutionary theory if you discard the notion that it is talking about literal days. For the 6000 year group I suggest you look at 2nd Peter where he talks about how a day to the Lord is like a thousand years.)
As a Christian I don’t believe that other faiths are completely wrong. I frankly found it very reaffirming to read the Book Of Buddha. The original Buddha preached the very same message that Christ gave us which is to love your neighbour and beyond that even, to love your enemy. Christianity does proclaim the idea that Christ was God incarnate. In many ways Christ completed other faiths in existence at that time. (Islam came along later.)
As I said, I don’t believe that other faiths are completely wrong and frankly I don’t accept the idea that there are nothing but Christians in heaven. I believe that those of other faiths who genuinely embrace the message of love and forgiveness are actually serving Christ even if they don’t know him by name. I know that there are Christians on this forum that will disagree with me on this point but frankly I can only say that I believe they are mistaken. The Bible also makes the point that it isn’t those who know the message of Christ that are right with him, but it is those who have his message in their hearts. As one Christian songwriter put it, it doesn’t matter if you know the Bible if it’s all just in your head, the thing I need to ask you is have you done the things I said.
That’s the What, so now I’ll try and explain Why.
Faith and Christianity are not science. The case for Christianity at this point 2000 years later, is based on largely circumstantial evidence. It can’t be tested in a lab or seen under a microscope. I do believe though that there is logic and reason to support Christianity if the question of its veracity is approached with an open mind.
Atheism didn’t and doesn’t make sense to me. I realize that Dawkins and others have been able to show how Paley’s watch theory doesn’t hold up as conclusive proof, but they can’t prove the opposite either. It does appear to me that it is highly unlikely that my eyeball, a rose, my love for my family, and even my ability to reason just happened by some strange cosmic accident.
Also, it seems to me that if the Atheistic view was accurate, their nature would be to simply get as much as they can, as quickly as they can, and anyway they can. My experience with Atheists is that this just isn’t the case. This indicates to me that their positive attributes are from something other than the natural. They love their families, and have compassion for others just like everyone else. I don’t see any evidence that feelings of love, compassion and values are a part of any evolutionary process. It certainly appears to me that there is something external to our physical world that is influencing our thoughts. It is also obvious that we can all choose to ignore that influence, or as it has been put, that still small voice.
This much of Why Belief only got me to the point of being a Theist. Frankly at that point I knew very little of other faiths so I naturally turned to Christianity. Since then as I have gained knowledge and experience I have reaffirmed for myself,over and over, that I came to the right conclusion.
I have a great deal of difficulty with the notion that God would create us and then basically ignore us. If he cared enough to create us, it seems logical to me that he would care enough to give us guidance. My kids are grown but I certainly didn’t leave them to raise themselves, and I believe that to be a good metaphor for our relationship with God.
I can’t prove that Christ was who he said he was, but I believe that the circumstantial evidence is convincing. Why would he carry on a false messianic complex to the cross? Why would his followers who had been totally dispirited after the crucifixion go on to commit the rest of their lives to taking Christ’s life and message to the world. Some of the apostles were executed because of this commitment.
If God created time and space it just seems to make sense to me that at some point that he would become a part of it. It also makes sense that he would come in human form to give us a template to live by. To be honest the concept of His death making possible the forgiveness of sins is something I don’t understand but do take on faith.
Christ’s message of love, loyalty, honesty, resonated with me. In my initial time as a Christian I believed that even if I was wrong about the faith, I was becoming more like the person I really wanted to be. I found that after I had accepted the Christian faith as probably true, had joined a church, talked to other Christians and had started to pray, there was a change in my life. My outlook was different and my priorities changed. I realize many will believe that this is just power of suggestion and nothing I can say will make you feel otherwise, but frankly, I know the reality of what happened to me.
I’m 61. Inside of me there is still a young guy of twenty. I think that all of us as we get older realize that, although our circumstances change, we mature, and we gain wisdom. There is a part of us that doesn’t change and is ageless. There is a part of us that isn’t really a part of time and space. There is something else beyond our life here. I know the old opiate of the masses’ quote, but frankly that wasn’t part of my decision. I became a Christian because I believed that it was the truth, not because I wanted it to be.
edited for typos
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-01-2005 01:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BostonD, posted 05-31-2005 4:22 PM BostonD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:49 PM GDR has replied
 Message 15 by BostonD, posted 06-01-2005 4:29 PM GDR has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 8 of 111 (213058)
06-01-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
06-01-2005 12:29 AM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
Sort of working back to front...
Its too bad, for you, that this evidence cannot be substantiated, but then, that would make it all too easy and rid life of "the most potent element of human existance" ... faith.
That faith is the most potent element of human existence is your unporvable opinion.
(in reference to the divinity of Christ)keep in mind that you have no evidence but there could be evidence for other.
Then it isn't evidence. Evidence works for everyone if it really is evidence. There is no such thing as evidence for you but not for me. In any case, I am not here to debate for the umpteenth time whether there is evidence for the divinity of Christ. There isn't, which is why I don't believe in it.
The question is why, given this lack of evidence, does anyone choose to believe in such divinity. So far, Phat and CS have basically said "Because I do". That's nice. Why? We have this from CS:
I believe that Jesus spoke so much truth (about the way you should live your life, etc.) that I can believe everything that he said, including being the son of god.
Are we really to beieve that it is outside the realm of possibility for Christ to have lied or been deluded about one thing only... his divinity? That is, of course, assuming that his teachings are actually applicable in modern times or that they ever were. Believe it if you will, CS. That is your right, but it isn't a very compelling reason.
And finally...
I don't think Jesus was a con man because he didn't gain anything from the con, and he allowed himself to be crucified seemingly defeating the purpose of a con.
Maybe he was just really good at the street preaching end of things but bad at the payoff and getaway parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-01-2005 12:29 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 06-01-2005 12:27 PM mikehager has replied
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-01-2005 4:30 PM mikehager has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 111 (213067)
06-01-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mikehager
06-01-2005 12:15 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
If the message that he taught, 'Love GOD and love others as you love yourself' is valid, does it matter whether or not he really was a deity?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:15 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 10 of 111 (213080)
06-01-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
06-01-2005 3:12 AM


I agree, mostly.
You are correct that choosing theism is not a logical or scientific choice. However, you are making a few incorrect assumptions in your detailed decision making process.
It does appear to me that it is highly unlikely that my eyeball, a rose, my love for my family, and even my ability to reason just happened by some strange cosmic accident.
Why? Do you think there is something special about you that makes such a thing unlikely? I have never observed anything like that.
Also, it seems to me that if the Atheistic view was accurate, their nature would be to simply get as much as they can, as quickly as they can, and anyway they can.
This is absolutely untrue. It is simply prejudice. Altruism and all it's manifestations are very useful evolved traits. Love of children and family, compassion for the injured, a willingness to defend the group at the cost of one's own life, all of these and more are altruistic traits useful to the species as a whole. The "still small voice" is just the promptings of our evolved altruistic traits. By the way, if you are actually hearing a voice rather then an emotional urge to act in a certain way, consider seeking help.
So now, the Atheist bashing done with (I consider someone saying 'deep down you have my God in your heart and you just won't acknowledge it' bashing) GDR proceeds to give us all the reasons he choose Christianity. I see no need to comment on any of that as it is all simple, unsupported opinion that it is GDR's right to hold. It is utterly personal and unconvincing.
One question that keeps getting raised in my mind is why do the vast majority of theists have their sudden, deep conversions about the socially acceptable faith in the society they were born and reside in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 06-01-2005 3:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 11 of 111 (213087)
06-01-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
06-01-2005 12:27 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
If that were really all Christianity taught the problems with it would certainly be lessened. Unfortunately, that is not the case. White washing Christianity and taking from it only what is socially considered good right now is spurious.
And as to the second part of your question, yes it does matter. He claimed it. People build their lives around it. Wars were fought and are being fought because of it. Personal cruelties and abuses are happening because of it. It damn sure matters morally if Christ was lying when he made his claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 06-01-2005 12:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 111 (213093)
06-01-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mikehager
06-01-2005 12:58 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
i don't think it was christ so much who made those claims. he seems like your average itinerant preacher... living in near poverty, having few friends and many enemies, teaching kindness and humility, etc. the whole rest of the religion seems to be built after him. perhaps it's true that he was somehow divine and perhaps he did die and rise again so that god could forgive us. but. some kind of all-ending belief in him seems to be more in the writings of paul than the teachings of jesus. jesus loved the skeptical. he caters to thomas without even being asked and provides him the proof he demands. thus god gave me my doubts that i might love him more.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 111 (213095)
06-01-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by mikehager
06-01-2005 12:58 PM


Re: Relative truth or absolute truth?
And as to the second part of your question, yes it does matter. He claimed it. People build their lives around it. Wars were fought and are being fought because of it. Personal cruelties and abuses are happening because of it. It damn sure matters morally if Christ was lying when he made his claims.
Why does it matter? People doing wrong will always find justification. While many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity, that was not often the cause but most often a tool of convenience.
I will agree that most Christians misunderstand and misuse Christianity. I try to speak out against such practices when they are observed. But that has nothing to do with Christianity. It is people misuing dogma just as folk have misued Evolution.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:58 PM mikehager has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 111 (213141)
06-01-2005 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mikehager
06-01-2005 12:49 PM


Re: I agree, mostly.
mikehager writes:
Why? Do you think there is something special about you that makes such a thing unlikely? I have never observed anything like that.
I am most certainly not claiming that there is anything special about me. I think that it is fairly obvious that I was talking about all of mankind. My point was simply that although Dawkins and others have argued effectively that the eyeball could have evolved bit by bit over time without ID, does not mean that it did happen that way. Because it could have, does not mean that it did. We just basically disagree. I find that the evidence, although not conclusive either way, leads more logically to there being an Intelligent Designer than not.
maikehager writes:
This is absolutely untrue. It is simply prejudice. Altruism and all it's manifestations are very useful evolved traits. Love of children and family, compassion for the injured, a willingness to defend the group at the cost of one's own life, all of these and more are altruistic traits useful to the species as a whole. The "still small voice" is just the promptings of our evolved altruistic traits. By the way, if you are actually hearing a voice rather then an emotional urge to act in a certain way, consider seeking help.
You make the statement that what I said is absolutely untrue. What puts you in a position to say that. It is the basic disagreement between atheists and theists. I believe that the urge for altruism in our lives comes from an Intelligent Designer whereas you believe that our sense of altruism evolved without any metaphysical influence. Neither position can be proven. We have both just looked at the evidence and come to different conclusions.
By the "still small voice" I was referring to our conscience, as I'm sure you know.
mikehager writes:
So now, the Atheist bashing done with (I consider someone saying 'deep down you have my God in your heart and you just won't acknowledge it' bashing) GDR proceeds to give us all the reasons he choose Christianity. I see no need to comment on any of that as it is all simple, unsupported opinion that it is GDR's right to hold. It is utterly personal and unconvincing.
It is not Atheist bashing. It is simply the same argument again that I made in the previous paragraph. Actually, Atheism has brought about several positive changes to our world not the least of which was to force the church to clean up its act when it became far to politically powerful around the time of the French revolution.
I frankly didn't think that I would be convincing you or others. The question was why do I believe what I do, and of course it's personal.
mikehager writes:
One question that keeps getting raised in my mind is why do the vast majority of theists have their sudden, deep conversions about the socially acceptable faith in the society they were born and reside in?
I am guessing that you are basing your opinion on your experiences in the US. I live in Canada. In Canada the prominent religion is Secular Humanism. Just about any belief is treated with more respect than Christian belief.
In actuality the Christian faith is growing far more rapidly in Asia, Africa and South America than in North America or Europe. As far as Christianity is concerned I think that your comment isn't supported by the facts, and that if you look at the current situation just the opposite is true as it applies to Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mikehager, posted 06-01-2005 12:49 PM mikehager has not replied

  
BostonD
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 111 (213205)
06-01-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
06-01-2005 3:12 AM


First I have to say I really appreciate your response. It seems to me you have put a lot of thought into your decisions of faith. At the heart of things I think I agree with a lot of what you say, but as a scientist, and a novice philosopher, I often steer myself away from spiritual things. On the concept of man's ability to reason... I think this is near the core of any discussion on God. We think and feel and make complex decisions, and modern science still has no good explaination as to how the brain makes this possible. But knowing what I know about neuroscience and artificial intelligence, I'm confident that one day intelligent machines can be created. If this is so, then every aspect of intelligence and consciousness can be explored and tampered with in a laboratory. Facing those realities, and seeing experimental results explaining how my neurons grow, interact, and network to create my mind... I just can't comprehend my believing in having a soul anymore. Granted, this is hypothetical, but it is within the reach of science (some claim we will be there in 20-50 years although I'd put it on the latter end of that scale). For me, the ability of the human mind to explain the natural world trumps everything.
Also, on the notion of why people may act appropriately or with "morals" in the absence of God, try reading Kant's Metaphysics of Morals... I'm not experienced enough to give you a complete rundown, but he outlines practical reasons why morality necessary and explains itself without religion.
In fact, considering the vastness of the universe. The quadrillions of galaxies, stars, planets, and the proposed existence of multiple universes coexisting allow for an almost infinite space from which life can spontaneously arise. Given such an infinite incubator, the fact that such complex and intelligent life can arise somewhere is not really so surprising.... over such a space and over an untold timeframe, one might even say it's a certainty. To me, it's not life that is devine and unexplainable, it is that infinite space, time, matter, eternity.
Thanks again for your discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 06-01-2005 3:12 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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