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Author Topic:   By Grace or by Works Remix
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 25 (346194)
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


Goodness Gracious Remix:
I have observed countless posts here at EvC regarding the essence of religion and behavior.
My hope is that this topic can provide a forum for additional discussion regarding basic Christian doctorine as interpreted by the participant.
While I want to limit this discussion to Christianity, I realize that as individuals, we each have beliefs which are intrinsically valid based upon our own heartfelt interpretations of them. Some believe that the Bible is innerrent and infallible.
Others believe that the Bible is but one of many books and writings which serve as an overall moral guideline.
In this topic, I want to focus our discussion primarily at the following issue:
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
Faith and Belief, please.

Replies to this message:
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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 25 (346198)
09-03-2006 9:46 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 25 (346204)
09-03-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNWR
09-03-2006 9:46 AM


Is our behavior entirely due to our own efforts?
The Augsburg Confession says:
First, that our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christs sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2, 6, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14, 6.
One point of view that I have heard is that God plays no favorites---He has provided a means for salvation and communion (with Him) for all of us, and that it is by our behavior and efforts that we will accomplish our best spiritual and practical effort in this life.
Another point of view (and belief) that I have heard states that
C.A.R.M. writes:
Justification is by faith. True faith results in regeneration of the sinner which, in turn, results in good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor keep it. Jesus accomplished that on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross. This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.
The other basic point of view states that our salvation is not earned nor maintained by our own efforts.
Personally, I believe that behavior on a daily basis is very important. I believe that my behavior is not entirely of my own efforts but that my relationship with God on a daily basis enables my behavior to honor Him.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4 of 25 (346223)
09-03-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


Phat writes:
... do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
By their fuits ye shall know them.
You can see plenty of examples right here at EvC: many of those who claim to be "attuned" with God couldn't attune a radio.
A good tree produces good fruit. It doesn't have to "believe" in the gardener.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-03-2006 9:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 09-05-2006 8:34 AM ringo has replied
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 09-06-2006 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 25 (346623)
09-05-2006 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
09-03-2006 12:02 PM


You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish!
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
Ringo writes:
A good tree produces good fruit. It doesn't have to "believe" in the gardener.
This is true. However...a good tree has roots which tap in to a source that feeds the tree.
Going with this analogy, some believe that our source is the very Spirit of God infusing us with a dynamic energy and sense of purpose. Others believe that human wisdom builds on other human wisdom and that ideas are expressed through human beings who have read or heard the ideas of other human beings.
Edited by Phat, : ten thumbs

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 25 (346632)
09-05-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
09-03-2006 10:18 AM


Commune with God or Not
quote:
One point of view that I have heard is that God plays no favorites---He has provided a means for salvation and communion (with Him) for all of us, and that it is by our behavior and efforts that we will accomplish our best spiritual and practical effort in this life.
I think it depends on what one feels they need salvation from.
I feel that communing with and respecting what was created is what leads to spiritual maturity and communion with God. I think many people are predisposed (genetics) to this behavior. (good tree, good fruit) Even religion in the hands of an aggressive nature can be bad.
Our source is that which was created by God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 25 (346659)
09-05-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
09-05-2006 8:34 AM


Re: You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish!
Phat writes:
...a good tree has roots which tap in to a source that feeds the tree.
Well... so does a bad tree.
You can have a good tree and a bad tree side-by-side in the same orchard, so it doesn't seem fair to blame (or credit) the soil alone.
Going with this analogy, some believe that our source is the very Spirit of God infusing us with a dynamic energy and sense of purpose.
Going with the analogy, that sounds like a parasitic relationship.
quote:
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John suggests that God "fine-tunes" our fruit-producing capabilities - but don't forget that fruit production is a natural thing.
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
The (stretched) analogy suggests that our own efforts and behaviours will produce the desured results - God's intervention only improves the efficiency.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 25 (346676)
09-05-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!'
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought--
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 25 (346947)
09-06-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-05-2006 12:45 PM


You got me to look it up.....
I had to look up the origin of this poem, and found the following information at Wikipedia.
Wiki writes:
"Jabberwocky" is a poem (of nonsense verse) found in Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There (1871) by Lewis Carroll. It is generally considered to be one of the greatest nonsense poems written in the English language.
The inspiration for the Jabberwock allegedly came from a tree in the gardens of Christ Church, Oxford, where Carroll was a mathematician (under his real name of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson). The tree in question is large and ancient with many sprawling, twisted branches somewhat suggestive of tentacles, or the Hydra of Greek mythology.
The poem is particularly interesting because, although it contains many nonsensical words, the structure is perfectly consistent with classic English poetry. The sentence structure is accurate (another aspect that has been challenging to reproduce in other languages), the poetic forms are observed (e.g. quatrain verse, rhymed, iambic meter), and a "story" is somewhat discernible in the flow of events. According to Alice in Through the Looking Glass, "Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas - only I don't exactly know what they are!"
Now what I'm trying to do is to understand how this ties in with my topic.
So....Jar...do you believe that literary education and exposure to classical art and wisdom of others (such as Lewis Carroll) is a mitsvah?
In other words, as Alice said, "Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas - only I don't exactly know what they are!".
This goes along with your philosophy of encouraging people to think rather than telling them what to think.
When I talk to young people, I like to encourage and stimulate thinking. Usually, our topic is tied in with Christian philosophy/theology since that is the type of volunteer that I am, but I would have no problem using a poem such as this one as a topic starter and icebreaker.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 25 (346953)
09-06-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
09-05-2006 12:01 PM


Husbandman
I like the pruning analogy.
When God brings to ones attention a "flaw" in ones own behavior, the individual has a choice of dealing with the "flaw" or continuing as before.
If God shows someone that they are doing something wrong by his standards and the person realizes that what they are doing is wrong by God's standard, then the person needs to "prune" out the wrong behavior.
God will show you the bad branches, but IMO we have to apply the shears and maintain the good branches; which does take some time and effort to change our own behavior.
I think many are disappointed because they expect an instant reformatting to take place in their brain after acceptance so that change will be easy. IMO it still takes effort on our part. Effort to continually listen for the master husbandman's instructions and effort to carry them out.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 25 (346966)
09-06-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
09-06-2006 10:50 AM


Re: Husbandman
purpledawn writes:
I think many are disappointed because they expect an instant reformatting to take place in their brain after acceptance so that change will be easy.
Yes. "Accepting God" or "accepting Jesus" (and I don't like that terminology) is just getting the job - it's the interview, not the job itself. We still have to do the work.
Jesus was wise to portray it as an ongoing project.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 25 (346977)
09-06-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
09-03-2006 12:02 PM


Ringo writes:
A good tree produces good fruit.
Isn't this analogy a little subjective? What we define as "good fruit" is entirely based on how people perceive what to be expected as "good" from a fruit.
Take the durian for example. While this is absolutely delicious to the people of Southeast Asia, we actually had people try to eat it on Fear Factor a few weeks ago.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 25 (346989)
09-06-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
09-06-2006 1:13 PM


gasby writes:
What we define as "good fruit" is entirely based on how people perceive what to be expected as "good" from a fruit.
The rule-of-thumb would be, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
More specifically, "Feed unto others what you would have others feed unto you." If you don't like to eat rotten fruit, then don't feed rotten fruit to your family or your guests, don't sell rotten fruit, don't give rotten fruit to charity, etc.
If you don't like durians, don't grow them.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 14 of 25 (346998)
09-06-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


By Grace or by Works Remix
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I don't think I'd really claim any "fruitful works" as a direct mechanism for becoming spiritually attuned.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 25 (347178)
09-07-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
09-06-2006 2:14 PM


Ringo writes:
The rule-of-thumb would be, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
What about masochists and saddists?
If you don't like to eat rotten fruit, then don't feed rotten fruit to your family or your guests, don't sell rotten fruit, don't give rotten fruit to charity, etc.
You know, a lot of people would take this statement as offensive, considering how many southeast asians there are.
If you don't like durians, don't grow them.
See, that's the point. I've "tried" it a few times. Still can't make up my mind what the fuck durian tastes like or what the odor smells like. I have heard some people describe it as smelling like rotten cheese.
Have you tried it? What is your opinion on the fruit?
PS - You should have seen the faces of those on fear factor when they tried to eat it. I've been wondering if I had put on the same face when I first tried it.

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