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Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What variety of creationist is Buzsaw? (Minnemooseus and Buzsaw only) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
This topic starts with material from an Adminnemooseus / AdminBuzsaw conversation in the "Private Administration Forum" (PAF), which for those that have PAF access, starts here,. It is a side topic in a topic complimenting AdminBuzsaw on his moderation efforts.
Buzaws' reply to the above:
More marginal to this topic were some additional Buzsaw comments:
Adminnemooseus' reply to the main material above, which gets to the core of this topic:
To which Buzsaw replied:
To which Minnemooseus replied:
The following is miscellaneous material from the PAF messages, most not directly relevant to this topic. The third block of text, however, probably is relevant. Buzsaw specificly indicated that he would like it included int this topic.
That, and a few other messages concerning agreeing to this "Great Debate", gets us to my starting this topic. I will end message 1 here, and will also post new input as message 2. Minnemooseus
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added subtitle. Also added an "I" that had gotten lost in the copy/paste procedures I did.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
The core of the broader theme of this topic is that those of the evolution side of the debate assume that anyone professing to be a creationist, is a young universe / young Earth creationist (YEC), unless they make clear otherwise. And it seems that for many of 's non-YEC creationists, statements of being non-YEC are obscure at best. Perhaps they have stated their non-YEC creationist position, but such gets lost in the clutter of the older topics. Or perhaps they do not have a clear personal opinion on the age of the universe / age of the Earth (as I found out about Randman via the Yec/Not Yec? - A "let's keep it short topic" topic). But, in my opinion, those ages are most fundamental in the whole creationism/evolution debate. My impression, from the material presented in message 1, is that you have no great conflicts with much of evolutionary theory, be it biological or non-biological. Your main creationist differences seem to kick in concerning the events of creation day 6. Quoting from my version of the Bible, concerning "Sixth day: animals and man" (Genesis 1:24-27, it also continues on through verse 31):
First comment - Awful lot of redundant text there. I am thinking that the key part of the above quoted is the "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." I am also thinking that you believe that that creation is a matter of spiritual and not physical image and likeness. If I am interpreting your position correctly, you are very far from being a young universe, young Earth creationist. I see you as being able to accept the evolution of the human species from earlier life forms, to later (roughly 6000 years ago) be given by God the spiritual image of God. As such, I would file you under "theistic evolutionist". Again, I see no major conflicts between your creationist viewpoint and the mainstream scientific evolutionary viewpoint. But then, I may be substantially misunderstanding your position. Minnemooseus Added by edit - For possible future reference, the list of "Biological Evolution", "Human Origins", and "Geology and the Great Flood" topics Buzsaw has posted to: "Biological Evolution": "Human Origins": "Geology and the Great Flood":
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added Buzsaw "Biological Evolution" and "Human Origins" topic lists. Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added "Geology and the Great Flood" topic list.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 1088 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
I had midread the above quoted "unknown until day five" to mean "unknown until and including day five". In other words, my interpretation was that your "roughly six thousand years" did not include the day five creation event(s); It only included day six on. This may well be a major glitch in my interpretation of your creationist position. Also, I seemed to have blotched my attention to some of day six, and got over-focused on the creation of man. Feel free to comment on what I previously wrote, but be aware that I was not considering the events of day five, and misconsidered the events of day six. Back to the Bible for me. Things are looking much more to be "Buzsaw is a YEC", or, even more confusing, "Buzsaw is a semi-YEC". Minnemooseus Added by edit: OK, day five deals with the creation of fish and birds, but you have to go back to day three for the creation of vegetation. Essentially the Buzsaw position seems to be "day 4 and earlier - old Earth is acceptable"; "day five and later - young Earth". I thought I had made sense of the Buzsaw position, but now I'm boggled. Like I said above, "Buzsaw is a semi-YEC"? Now ready for Buzsaw input.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above. Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added top and bottom banners.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Hi Minnemooseous. You've gone to a lot of work here. Thanks much! I am pleased to be able to clarify my position on these things, since what I call my Buzsaw Hypothesis on origins and creationism science is quite unique and easily confused when it's dealt out piecemeal in various threads over a long period of time. Btw, are you ok with me using "Moose" for brevity? Please feel free to say so if you'd rather have your username in full. "Buz" is fine with me if you wish so as to save some typing. An old 1950's Air Force buddy in my squadron was "Moose." (abe: Disregard. I've decided to go with the whole username.)
The only evolution I can accept would be possibly some micro type adaptations within a species. I see in your next post you acknowledge that you missread so I understand why you had this wrong here.
Actually I believe that though God is spirit, he has a literal glorified glowing image resembling ours in form. He is complex and beyond our comprehension, having a multi-present spirit known as the Holy Spirit being the formless member of the trinity, also being the spirit of Jevovah the father as well as Jesus, the son. Whenever a theophany of God appeared to men/mankind, it was in the form of a man, sometimes referred to the angel of God. So we, being uniquely intelligent beings are created very much like God in form/image as well as spirit unlike the other earthly creatures/brute beasts. Angels also appear to be always in like image, often being mistaken for earth men. If you need clarification on my position on this, say so and I'll do the best I can to explain my position.
That is correct, the universe being eternal having no beginning perse. Everything in the universe proceeded from God in some form or another as per TD1 science. All that exists today has existed in some form or another eternally, either as engergy/matter within the being of God or as matter/energy proceeding forth from God intelligently designed (ID) for his purpose. Colossians 1:17 would at least imply this when referring to Jesus who come from the Holy Spirit it says that he was before all things which were created and all things consist in him. This statement is not easily comprehended but I see it as at least implicating my above statement.
That is incorrect. Adam was the first earth man ever, created in one literal day roughly six milleniums ago as the perfect man who being created perfect was far superior to any since the fall in every respect, body soul and mind, but nevertheless totally human as we are.
This is incorrect. I'll proceed to your next message to address that since you missread as you have stated in that message. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Perfecto! Since the sun and moon were as stated in the text "for seasons, for days and for years," the text, imo, implies that previous to these bodies and since it is not given how long it took in day for for them to be finished, there is no criteria in the first four days to determine the length of them, the light of them being furnished by God and by another source. In Revelation 21:23 we read that in the New Jerusalem of the new earth (future) "it has no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God did lighten it." I assume that the glory of God's Holy Spirit furnished the light for planet earth in the first four days before the sun and moon were created. Why did God wait until day four? The Buzsaw Hypothesis (BH for the purpose of this thread) has it that since there would be widely varying requirements of heat for effecting the various processes of creation, some monumetal, the HS (Holy Spirit) emmited the exact amount of energy needed to effect each desired application. This would include preparing planet earth with ample vegitation so as to be in place for the living creatures after day four. Thus day three being pre sun and moon for the plants. Likely a literal day, though not impossible with God, would not be the best way to go. Again, for clarification on anything or if I have failed to address some point, just say the word. Btw, I've decided to edit your full username into the other messages in place of "Moose" since once I get use to typing it it goes fast. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
First of all, calling me Moose in just fine. For some vague reason I was feeling extra formal at the beginning of this topic and started signing off with the full Minnemooseus, which is something I have rarely if ever done before. It think it had something to do with the fact that the roots of this topic was an Adminnemooseus/AdminBuzsaw conversation.
When I completed message 2, I was thinking we had major agreement, and this topic was going to be a very short one. So much for that idea. As I see it, my blotched up message 2 has resulted in your message 5 reply being irrelevant to the debate, at least at this point. Maybe it will become relevant later. Anyway, I'm not going to make any response to message 5, other than to say I have no problem with an eternal universe, with what we now know as the universe being only the latest installment of a longer history. Your first paragraph of message 6 anticipated what was going to be my next first question. I think I find your answer acceptable, at least in the context of the debate so far. The resolving of this point so quickly has really caught me by surprise. Your second paragraph (further elaborated on in your third paragraph) anticipated what was going to be my second question. I had, at least generally, accurately predicted to myself what your response would be. Again, I find your answer acceptable, at least in the context of the debate so far. I didn't have a third question lined up, or if I did, I sure can't remember it now. Right now, I have nothing further to add. Please stand by until I come up with material and post another message. Alas, I fear this topic may be merging into the same area as my "Great Debate" with Faith (Yes, Faith, I haven't forgotten it). You may want to look at Two Different Stories About the Creation - Faith and Moose only. Moose
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
1. I need to clarify one thing regarding message 6. When I said it is unknown how long the first four days were, I meant that to mean these days could even have been 24 hour days but imo, not likely that short. After all, the creator, being omnipotent could have effected a great deal of change in one day, having his mighty spirit effecting the geological change, et al and not relying on the natural processes via the sun, et al to provide the energy and change desired. 2. Even if days one through 4 were literal days, the earth and heavens would not be young. Why? Because Genesis 1:1, imo doesn't begin until the Holy Spirit began to "move upon the waters." The statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is simply an introductory statement regarding the origin of the earth and the universe, being an appropriate beginning statement to God's manual/book for mankind. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
In the above quoted and also in message 6, in an obtuse sort of way, you seem to be saying that God had the power to created a young Earth with an appearance of a much older age, and that maybe he did. Do you agree with that statement, and if so, might such have also extended into the creations of days 5 and 6? Do you agree or disagree with this statement: "Concerning planet Earth, Buzsaw recognizes that the worldly evidence does give support to ages and processes that fall outside of the Buzsaw model". (Being an obtuse) Moose Added by edit: This is not really something I want to bring into this message, but if I don't do it now, I won't remember to do it later:
Were there other "simular to man, but not man" creatures created in day 6, perhaps prior to the creation of Adam? Creatures not quite up to being "in God's image"?
Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above. Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added banner message at top and bottom of message.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I'm not saying he did it with planet earth. I do believe he likely did it with the sun and moon. The protostar stage of sun, as I understand it is about 30 million years, so the sun would have to appear likely much older than that and I doubt that day four was that long. We just don't know as the text info isn't that imphatic. Many moons ago I had an inthread mini debate with Eta Carina in which imo I emperially established that if the sun were created relative suddenly by God, it would have had to appear with the appearance of age, i.e. 30 million years plus.
:D..........:cool:
Imo, as per text, the most intelligent lower creatures to man were the serpents/reptiles/dinosaurs (dinos as per Buz hypothesis), who before the fall were as the text implies more intelligent than any of the other creatures of the field. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
From a current "Proposed New Topic":
But some creatures were created prior to day 5. You are a "Some creatures are old, some creatures are young" creationist. Which still puts you outside of the worldly evidence of the creation story. Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
From message 108 of the "What is an Articulate Informed Creationist" topic:
As I see it, you are part OEC, part YEC. You do compress a big chunk of (distorted) Earth history into the 5000 to 10,000 years, or whatever it is. Moose
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3838 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: |
Comments in this topic?
Moose
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Hi Moose. Sorry I missed this updated message. Thanks for the bump. I don't consider plants as creatures, plants being the only living organisms before day 5. Do you consider plants to be creatures? I see Mirriam Webster includes inanimate as a creature property, but I don't recall anyone referring to plants as creatures in the common usage of the word. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I consider myself to be OEC all the way but no possible way to determine how old. As I stated before, imo, the opening statement of Genesis 1:1 is not part of day one perse, but an introductory prefacing the six day creation account to the effect that whenever the universe and earth were created it was God who created them. I pretty much go with the Bishop James Ussher geneology record which is about 6000 years for both man and all other living things except plants. I will concede however that that the six milleniums is not set in stone, so to speak with me, in that perhaps one might question the prefall existence of Adam and Eve as to whether their prefall time was calculated in the Biblical geneological record. I do tend to assume that they were included. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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