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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Stile
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Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1 of 308 (449305)
01-17-2008 4:36 PM


By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".

Is Christianity honourable?
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.

To me it would be more honourable to help others and not join Christianity (therefore not asking for personal salvation in return).

If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation... am I doomed to Hell for trying to be honourable? Does this mean God does not want people to lead honourable lives?

Is there any religion that does not give a reward for joining and focuses more on being honourable?

Perhaps for Faith and Belief or Miscellaneous Topics


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 7:31 PM Stile has responded
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 9:40 AM Stile has responded
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 01-18-2008 11:24 AM Stile has responded

  
AdminNem
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Message 2 of 308 (449336)
01-17-2008 6:23 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3 of 308 (449371)
01-17-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
01-17-2008 4:36 PM


Understanding the basics
Is Christianity honourable?
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.

Stile, you are painting with a very broad brush. You can't very well say that Christians help people only because they think it will earn their way in to heaven, especially since the Bible specifically states that it is not the case.

The Lord examines the heart, questions the motives, and gives in accordance to that. Attempting to buy "Fire's [hell] Insurance" is probably the quickest way one will go to the very place they tried to avoid.

Look at how Jesus dealt with the pious people of His day. He held them to a higher standard of conduct because we are judged not for what we don't know, but for what we do know is wrong.

Jesus' purpose was to alleviate us from the curse of the Law -- being that it does not change one's desire to do what is good. Following the letter of the law was never the intent. The intent is to allow for the spirit of the law -- the essence of it -- and by it, we would begin to love the Law and to obey it as a natural outworking, rather than some obligatory, monotonous procedure so we could selfishly gain something from it.

That is Islam in a nutshell, not Christianity.


“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 01-17-2008 4:36 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4 of 308 (449515)
01-18-2008 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
01-17-2008 7:31 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:

You can't very well say that Christians help people only because they think it will earn their way in to heaven, especially since the Bible specifically states that it is not the case.

Sorry, didn't mean for it to come off like that. Let's look at what I said:

quote:
Is Christianity honourable?
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.

It doesn't imply that Christians help people only to get into heaven. It doesn't even imply that Christians help people out of any selfish intent. In fact, it does imply the opposite, that Christians certainly do help people just because it's nice to help people.

What it does imply (and say) is that there's an additional attachment. That if one becomes a Christian (in whatever way is needed), one will gain personal salvation. This no longer has anything to do with helping anyone out.

The point is, why does one need to declare oneself to be "Christian", or as is more popular "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" in order to receive the gift of salvation?

Why must one reach out and ask for this gift in order to receive it?

My point is that it's more honourable to receive a gift when you don't ask for it, when you don't do anything special for it, when you don't try to identify yourself.

My point is that it's more honourable to let yourself be judged by whoever will do the judging than to jump out beforehand and request salvation from whoever can grant such.

The point about helping people was only in there to show this can certainly be done without being in the religion. Not because it's required for salvation (although I acknowledge that some people think it is necessary). For this arguement, it is superfluous.

The Lord examines the heart, questions the motives, and gives in accordance to that.

Agreed. So why must one become a Christian? Why must one proclaim belief in God or Jesus? What's wrong with focusing on bettering your heart and motives without the extraneous identification of being "with Christ"? Why not just do those things with no assurance, or even a request of getting something back?

I thought the point of Christianity was that God will forgive us all and give us all salvation... all we have to do is ask for it. Am I wrong? My point is... I find it personally dishonourable to ask for such a magnificent gift. I feel that if God is giving these gifts out, He can give them to whoever he'd like. If I'm one he'd like to give it to, then great. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't good enough. Am I doomed to hell because of the way I am?

That is Islam in a nutshell, not Christianity

Poor form, bringing up an arguement that doesn't exist and finishing with slamming another religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-17-2008 7:31 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-18-2008 8:48 AM Stile has responded
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 11:35 AM Stile has responded
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-18-2008 4:39 PM Stile has responded
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 01-19-2008 5:43 PM Stile has responded
 Message 271 by TheTruth, posted 02-19-2008 12:21 PM Stile has responded

  
ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 4105 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 5 of 308 (449520)
01-18-2008 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
01-18-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
quote:
Agreed. So why must one become a Christian? Why must one proclaim belief in God or Jesus? What's wrong with focusing on bettering your heart and motives without the extraneous identification of being "with Christ"? Why not just do those things with no assurance, or even a request of getting something back?

Would you tell who your personal example is for doing good things to your neighbors? The Donald? The Rockefellers? That Buffett guy? And when you do those good things, how do you honor them by doing them in their honor? Do you ask yourself how they gained their riches?

Is it pleasant to be with such people, and why is it unpleasant to be with Christ? Did you think about what you were going to say before you said it? I don't want to put a cramp into your dialogue, you don't need my help.

He is right about Islam.

Edited by ThreeDogs, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 8:30 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 9:14 AM ThreeDogs has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 308 (449527)
01-18-2008 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ThreeDogs
01-18-2008 8:48 AM


What are we talking about?
I'm a little confused with regards to your post. I don't see what you're trying to say. Can you try again, maybe?

ThreeDogs writes:

Would you tell who your personal example is for doing good things to your neighbors?

I don't have a person who is my "personal example" for doing good things. Why would you think I had one? I do good things because I've decided it's better to try and help people than to hurt them. And yes, I would tell that to my neighbours (or anyone else) if they asked me about such motives.

And when you do those good things, how do you honor them by doing them in their honor?

I don't honour anyone, or do anything in anyone's honour. So I don't really understand what you're asking here. I do good things because I've decided that helping people is better than hurting them.

Do you ask yourself how they gained their riches?

No. I don't really trouble myself with riches, it adds too much unrequired stress. I certainly couldn't care less about how someone else got their riches. Unless, of course, they were hurting others, then I'd do what I could to prevent that.

Is it pleasant to be with such people, and why is it unpleasant to be with Christ?

That's a very good question. Why is it unpleasant to be with Christ? I certainly haven't said it was, I'm just saying that proclaiming any relationship with Christ is superfluous to being a good person, and a dishonourable way to try and gain anything.

Did you think about what you were going to say before you said it?

Very much so. Can you identify a problem somewhere?

I don't want to put a cramp into your dialogue, you don't need my help.

I'd like to get help from wherever possible. But if this discussion causes you discomfort, I'm not going to request that you remain.

I'm not really asking about what's "good" or why I should do good things. I'm asking about if I'm doomed to Hell because I don't think it would be good for me to ask a God for the gift of personal salvation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-18-2008 8:48 AM ThreeDogs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-18-2008 12:28 PM Stile has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 7 of 308 (449531)
01-18-2008 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
01-17-2008 4:36 PM


If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation...

at my genocide conference in july, i was involved in a conversation with a religion professor, an ethicist, my mother-the psychology graduate, and someone else... the religion professor is jewish. we were discussing forgiveness and healing after enduring atrocities. he thought, as a jew, that you cannot offer forgiveness unless it is asked for. you cannot forgive someone who is unrepentant. as a christian, i feel it is my duty to forgive, especially when the offender is not repentant. i don't really know the origin of this, but it seems as though it might be explained by the reception of our own forgiveness, whatever it may be for. i don't think seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs and doing good things for others really have anything to do with each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 01-17-2008 4:36 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 10:20 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 8 of 308 (449542)
01-18-2008 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
01-18-2008 9:40 AM


Forgiveness
brennakimi writes:

i don't think seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs and doing good things for others really have anything to do with each other.

I agree, and I've been trying to keep them seperate. Maybe the way I've worded things wasn't ideal.

But, I see three things:

1. Doing good things for others
2. Seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs
3. Receiving the gift of eternal salvation from God

Or are you saying that seeking forgiveness for our own wrongs is the same as receiving the gift of salvation?

My personal problem is that "seeking forgiveness for my wrong's" isn't really something I do. If I do something wrong, I atone for it by making sure I don't do it again, and helping those I've wronged. I don't ever seek forgiveness for anything. I don't really care if anyone else forgives me or not. I want to try to do the best I can. If someone is unwilling to forgive me for a mistake I've made, that doesn't have any effect on my goal of doing the best I can. I certainly appreciate it if someone does forgive me, but it's nothing I seek out. To me, I don't really see "being forgiven" as important, or really meaning anything. To me, what's important is to learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves.

Sometimes asking someone for forgiveness can show to them that you are sorry for what you did, and want to try to make things better, and this can help them feel better. In this sense I see the benefit and importance of asking forgiveness. But this is not seeking forgiveness for one's own sake, it's doing it to help the other person recover from being wronged.

I agree with you that I also think it's my duty to forgive even if an offender is not repentant. But this doesn't change the fact that I don't personally seek forgiveness.

So to me there is no seeking of forgiveness. Only receiving a gift of salvation (if granted). And I find it wrong to seek or request for such a gift.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 9:40 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 10:39 AM Stile has responded
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 10:47 AM Stile has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 9 of 308 (449549)
01-18-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stile
01-18-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Forgiveness
The confession process.

In the Christianity I am familiar with we have a process of confession. The goal is to help a person honestly evaluate their own behavior and to see how things could be done better. It is not a formal process as in the Roman Catholic Church, although if such a procedure might help someone, that too is available.

One key component is to try to get us to realize that it is not just things we have done, but also those things left undone. The idea is to look at your own past and to test to see if you truly are sorry that you did not handle things differently.

The connect, if there is one, with salvation is on how you personally address your own behavior.

I would rephrase your list of threes slightly.


  1. Trying to do what is right. Not just for others but for yourself and the world we live in.
  2. Forgiving others and seeking forgiveness for oneself by changing your behavior.
  3. Salvation is something that was already given. It is a done deal and not something to be earned or purchased.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 10:20 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 308 (449554)
01-18-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stile
01-18-2008 10:20 AM


Re: Forgiveness
Or are you saying that seeking forgiveness for our own wrongs is the same as receiving the gift of salvation?

if we are seeking forgiveness from god, yes, i think so.

My personal problem is that "seeking forgiveness for my wrong's" isn't really something I do.

If I do something wrong, I atone for it by making sure I don't do it again, and helping those I've wronged.

that counts as repentance. seeking forgiveness is the act of apologizing and working to fix your wrong and forgiveness is not so much an excuse, but the acknowledgement by the injured party that the wrong has been atoned for, or that the wrong is considered atoned for. it's making sure that the injured party knows that you really are aware of the wrong and wish to atone for it. it's not saying "oh, it's okay." it isn't. that's how it's commonly viewed now, but that's not what it is. the wrong is never acceptable or justified. it is that the wrong-er is no longer burdened by the crime.

in christianity, the act of forgiveness is as much to unburden the wrong-ee of the crime as it is the wrong-er. this is an important switch from judaism.

I don't really care if anyone else forgives me or not. I want to try to do the best I can. If someone is unwilling to forgive me for a mistake I've made, that doesn't have any effect on my goal of doing the best I can. I certainly appreciate it if someone does forgive me, but it's nothing I seek out. To me, I don't really see "being forgiven" as important, or really meaning anything. To me, what's important is to learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves.

well. i think you're misunderstanding. the term "seek forgiveness" is that act of contrition, of coming before the person you've wronged and laying yourself at their mercy. it's an important part of improving yourself in the christian mind. the forgiveness is their choice. but you are supposed to expose yourself to that choice. the idea is to empower the wrong-ee, since your crime against them inherently took away their power or choice, regardless of what it was.

Sometimes asking someone for forgiveness can show to them that you are sorry for what you did, and want to try to make things better, and this can help them feel better. In this sense I see the benefit and importance of asking forgiveness. But this is not seeking forgiveness for one's own sake, it's doing it to help the other person recover from being wronged.

exactly. but even seeking forgiveness of god is supposed to be this way. it is his choice to forgive and to give "life". the amazing part is that he promises never to withold forgiveness. that's the great part. it's not that we g to him smugly knowing that everything we did doesn't matter, but that we go to him confidently knowing that he is quick to forgive and being eternally grateful for it.

So to me there is no seeking of forgiveness. Only receiving a gift of salvation (if granted). And I find it wrong to seek or request for such a gift.

it's an issue of wording and view, in my opinion. i hope i've explained that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 10:20 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 11:33 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 11 of 308 (449556)
01-18-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
01-18-2008 10:39 AM


No conflict here
I like your list, and it's very similar (if not exact) to what I tend to strive for.

jar writes:


  1. Trying to do what is right. Not just for others but for yourself and the world we live in.
  2. Forgiving others and seeking forgiveness for oneself by changing your behavior.
  3. Salvation is something that was already given. It is a done deal and not something to be earned or purchased.

I admire the Christianity you are familiar with, and I would feel honoured to receive any gift (let alone one as big as salvation) from any God promoting such virtues.

Uh, sorry that sounds so... formal. I don't think you and I have many differences surrounding this issue. But your input and advice is always welcome. From here I'd go on to discuss the liklyhood of salvation's existance and how such a liklyhood (whatever it is) doesn't have any effect on the first two points. But to keep this thread focused on topic, I'll stay away from that and keep with the assumption that salvation is a part of reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 10:39 AM jar has responded

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 Message 12 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 11:06 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 12 of 308 (449560)
01-18-2008 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stile
01-18-2008 10:52 AM


Re: No conflict here
From here I'd go on to discuss the liklyhood of salvation's existance and how such a liklyhood (whatever it is) doesn't have any effect on the first two points. But to keep this thread focused on topic, I'll stay away from that and keep with the assumption that salvation is a part of reality.

But I would agree with even that. The likelihood of salvation should never be the motivation for behavior. And honestly, none of us has a clue whether or not there is life after death. Some of us believe that part of the reason Jesus lived among us and died among us and returned from the dead to be among us before He ascended though was to demonstrate that there is really life after death.

For that to be true, Jesus must have been fully human and NOT god while living among us.

BUT, look at the Great Commandments.

Love God and Love others as you love yourself.

There is no mention in there of reward, no mention of salvation, just an outline of how to live THIS life.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 10:52 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 13 of 308 (449564)
01-18-2008 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
01-17-2008 4:36 PM


Stile writes:

If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation... am I doomed to Hell for trying to be honourable?

The honourable approach would be to volunteer to go to Hell. You'd be standing by your brother, loving your neighbour as yourself, trying to make Hell a better place.


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)

“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs


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 Message 1 by Stile, posted 01-17-2008 4:36 PM Stile has responded

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Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 14 of 308 (449566)
01-18-2008 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by macaroniandcheese
01-18-2008 10:47 AM


Understood
brennakimi writes:

exactly. but even seeking forgiveness of god is supposed to be this way. it is his choice to forgive and to give "life". the amazing part is that he promises never to withold forgiveness. that's the great part. it's not that we g to him smugly knowing that everything we did doesn't matter, but that we go to him confidently knowing that he is quick to forgive and being eternally grateful for it.

I like that. I certainly can, and will, apologize to God for any wrongs I do to Him (even if those wrongs are simply vicariously to Him through me doing it to other people or whatever) and seek to improve the gift of life He's seen fit to give me. If God always gives the gift of salvation to those who are truly sorry for their mistakes, then I understand how it's not really "seeking salvation".

Again, this is under the assumptions that God exists, that He gave us life and that He has salvation to give out. The next thing to discuss is whether or not these assumptions hold any weight. And about how these things being true or not should have no effect on how we forgive or live, but that's more for another thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 10:47 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

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 Message 16 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 11:36 AM Stile has responded
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 15 of 308 (449567)
01-18-2008 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
01-18-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
It doesn't imply that Christians help people only to get into heaven. It doesn't even imply that Christians help people out of any selfish intent.

I guess this quote seems pretty straightforward to me.

quote:
Is Christianity honourable?.. The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.

why does one need to declare oneself to be "Christian", or as is more popular "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" in order to receive the gift of salvation?

Because salvation comes from apart from ourselves. If we could offer ourselves salvation, we would do it. The premise of the gospels is that we have not, because we ask not.

Why must one reach out and ask for this gift in order to receive it?

Because of your freewill.

My point is that it's more honourable to receive a gift when you don't ask for it, when you don't do anything special for it, when you don't try to identify yourself.

It sounds as if you are equivocating doing nice things with achieving salvation. But the Scriptures indicate that even the lowest of the low, like the thief on the cross, can gain salvation without ever having to work for it.

Besides which, we don't work for our salvation, we work out our salvation.

why must one become a Christian? Why must one proclaim belief in God or Jesus? What's wrong with focusing on bettering your heart and motives without the extraneous identification of being "with Christ"? Why not just do those things with no assurance, or even a request of getting something back?

Some say that by doing these things, you begin to learn who God is a much more powerful and meaningful way than someone who spends all their time in the Bible, and no time out there living its dictates.

I believe that people can know God through nature and whatnot. Knowing the Word, in my opinion, just makes it fuller.

I thought the point of Christianity was that God will forgive us all and give us all salvation... all we have to do is ask for it. Am I wrong?

That's true, so long as there is sincerity.

My point is... I find it personally dishonourable to ask for such a magnificent gift. I feel that if God is giving these gifts out, He can give them to whoever he'd like. If I'm one he'd like to give it to, then great. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't good enough. Am I doomed to hell because of the way I am?

God knows who you are and all intricate details you don't even know about yourself. Since God is the very measure of righteousness, the very epitome of goodness, I dare say that your fate will all be dependent upon you, and not Him. My understanding is that if we will metaphorically crucify the self, we will begin to see God in profound ways.

Or is it that you feel like one's pride is being challenged, as if you have to debase yourself in order to be saved? Like you are begging for your life? Is that what you mean?

quote:
That is Islam in a nutshell, not Christianity

Poor form, bringing up an arguement that doesn't exist and finishing with slamming another religion.

I only meant to illustrate that Islam desires compulsory works to get you to Paradise. I'm not slamming it, I'm describing it. But your point is well taken, nonetheless.


“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis
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 Message 4 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 8:30 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:22 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
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