Militant Christianity and Matthew 5

I attended classes at Vassar in the earlier part of summer. The subject was America, and the world. Two professors and a highschool teacher gave lectures on the history of the United States. Most of the information I knew but I did learn alot. We watched several films. The Motorcycle Diaries (which I had already seen), Hotel Rwanda (which I had already seen), Fog of War which is a documentary on Robert S. Mcnamara and Fail-Safe a nuclear war film.I came to realize even more strongly than ever how primitive all war is. It's like two people throwing stones at each other. But instead of 2 people its more like millions.I felt stronger in this conviction after Vassar.So I then went to a christian bible camp after this. I have been going to this camp for a long time. I got "saved" there when I was nine.It was a different experience there because I now worked there instead of being a camper. I liked it much better.I had a boss and I worked maintenance. I lawn mowed and picked up heavy objects, manual labor. My roommate was a guy from Brooklyn, you could tell how much his environment affected him. He holds a "don't trust anyone" mentality. We discussed and argued about God, the Bible, Christ, Christianity in general for hours. We had a morning Bible study with my Boss (a true christian). This man had to do everything by himself that we (the maintenance staff)did there.
Although we had a morning Bible study we found ourselves discussing the bible all day.In one of these 4 hour discussions, the issue of evolution came up. From what I learned here, Evolution has the evidence. I voiced that to them, I said "I accept that the theory of evolution has the evidence, but I choose to believe the scripture on faith alone". I got in trouble for saying that. They kept asking for proof. I tried to think of examples I've heard here but I couldn't think of any. They said a lot of "creationist rhetoric". I felt lost. It got to the point when they started to question my christianity. My roommate said something like Jesus loves you or something and asked me a question but I didn't here what he said. They persisted to tell me that God would give me the answer and I got angry but then someone came in and interupted the discussion and it was over. I tried explaining that Abraham and Moses may have been heavily influenced by Mesopatamia, that Abraham was influenced by that culture and the creation myths are very similiar. They questioned the fact that there could have other cultures, it was inconcievable.In another group when I was in a similiar evolution debate someone (a leader at the camp) said "What good is Science?" I said "Science is medicine, it increases the quality of life." He questione if medicine is necessary. That's when I said "If it was up to you people, addressing everyone there, you could go about living and believing the world is flat."Was I sensing a recession into the Dark ages?I STARTED TO FEEL LIKE A WAS LOSING MYSELF. I began to speak less eloqently, I began to forget reasons for why I believe the things I do.In the same discussion I tried to explain tolerance. That we should be tolerant to all other faiths. A wrote a paper that is in possession of my Global teacher on the similarities between Taoism, Buddhism and Christianity.It is unbelievable how many things are exactly the same in these faiths. There are quotes right out of the Tao that say the same things that the Gospels say.I've studied it. Lao Tzu, Jesus Christ, and Siddhartha Gottama preached the same thing except fr one aspect. Christ also preached love. That is the only difference between the three.My boss wasn't that extreme, he didn't say they were all evil. He did say Buddhism was bad though, that it teaches people to become God's.
I didn't say this but look at what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:48
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.I've studied the major religions and they are all beautiful.I said this to them:"I was a christian before I studied the major religions and I was a christian after"Some of the new friends I made at vassar happened to be Muslim. They told me that in their final day Jesus comes down as it says in Revelation.I said Allah is God.This mention of Islam brings me to the main point of my post.I got in an argument with a christian that dresses in quaint, old fashioned clothing. She supports George Bush. I tried letting her know about how America is corrupt and that war is wrong and the Iraq war is for America's interests not the interests of human beings.It got to the point where she was saying I was brainwashed and "programmed by Vassar College. She was homeschooled and I regret saying what I said next. I rudely told her she needed a college education. When I believe school is not for everyone.As I said that a man stepped out of the building we were near, he sat across from me at the picnic table. He is a fundamentalist Militant Christian and the guest preacher for that week.He called me out on my rude comment, I didn't apologize. He started saying the most outrageous wrong things I have ever heard.
His claim to fame (for me) from the previous year was this statement:
"God blesses the scopes of the soldier that kills the enemy".He said Islam is evil, a religion and a people bent on world domination. He says it says so in the Quran. I knew it was a lie.He stated he was a Reagan Republican, I asked him to be a Jesus Christian.He said I was brainwashed by vassar college too.He said Sudddam was a bad man that needed to be dealt with.I said he caused destruction because the Reagan administration decided to sell him chemical and biological weapons.Through all this the statements that really pissed me off were these."Muslims hate Christians"
"What if God told Bush to do this"
"The Crusades were justified"
"All other religion is evil"These statements were reiterated through a friend I respected much more highly, he was my counselor at this camp for a few years.This preacher put a saw up to my neck to relay a point. Not malevolently I don't believe, but things were heated.The climax of this interaction was at the staff devotionals that night. I stayed later obviously. We were blowing up on eachother, saying neither of us had any facts.I said he was misrepresenting Jesus Christ and his facts which he gets from NetWorldDaily and CBN were wrong.He was trying to make me believe that My God is a god of war.I almost lost my faith that night.He quoted Exodus 15:3
"Our Lord is a God of war"I knew in the back of my mind in context it wouldn't make sense.We closed with Exodus 15:3, he had one. A year of not reading the Bible can make you lose to the biggest fool sometimes.He beat me with my own religion.I knew he was wrong though.I sat down, that night, now it was almost 1:00, I started at Exodus 15:3. I was right. It was a song being sung by the Israelites after God drowned the Egyptians.
The Israelites were wrong.I kept reading. I read many unethical verses summed up in 3:Exodus 21:23,24,2523And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.It almost seems.. There is a different moralty of the God of the Old and New Testament.I then turned to Jesus and found my God:Matthew 5:38,3938Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.Matthew 5:43,44,45,46,47important:"pray for those that spitefully persecute you"43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?So I cam to realize that all war is unjustified, that all war is sin.The preacher and his wife tried saying "that's different, that's between individuals"But what is the difference?What the difference between two people hating eachother and millions?The difference between two people killing eachother and millions?It's primitive.It's primitive.All war is primitive, and basic and unjustified.To say that Jesus Christ condones war is blasphemy.He didn't mean a literal sword.He didn't bless the centurion for being a soldier.My God is not a God of War.The christian God is not a God of War.But I see this movement. This angry movement.A movement to kill all enemies. To kill all that are not christians.
To justify sin.I saw it in the preacher, in my former roommate, in my former counselor.My roommate and I got into a heated argument as we were working. He voiced a militant christianity. I spoke to him of revolution.We both disliked Bush. He did because he lived it. He lives in the city where there pushing the poor out. He showed me a political emcee named Immortal Technique that spoke of the horrors of America, particularly this current administration, some things he said I was blown away by, his flow was so nice and he spoke truth, he said things i didn't even know in regards to the evil of the MEDIA and the administration.Well anyway, like Che Guevara we both decided a revolution was necessary. he spoke of using force and guns like Che did. I saw glimmer of violence in his eyes and it scared me. He's a big intimidating guy, tall with a scar from a knife on his face. But that's not what scared me. What scared me was his mentality. Violence and death was sometimes justified in his mind.That's what we argued, if christians should use violence to convert others he said yes. I said "what get's more converts, converting with love or converting by force" He said force. I let him in on a discussion we had here, how some believe that missionary work is exploitation. He questioned my belief for saying this. Even though i said I didn't believe it was. Iwas trying to give him various opinions.But this is what scared me the most.He referenced scripture in which Jesus whipped someone for going into his house or something.He said in one of the gospels Jesus whipped someone.He bet me money it was true. 5 dollars.I said it wasn't but I almost doubted myself, which is ludicrous but I didn't bet him. At almost the same time we both realized Jesus never did that it seemed. Still he insisted I show him verses of why Jesus does not condone war.I showed him Matthew 5 and he knew the truth.It's a disgrace that christians do not harp about Jesus's love and rather they harp on heaven and hell, to scare people into believing. I believe you should believe in Christ by his love alone.I might promote to not convert by mentioning heaven and hell but by sharing the Gospels.I remember reading a parable (if someone can refer to its exact spot I would be grateful) in which God sent an angel to douse the fires of hell and destroy heaven so that you would believe in God alone.This movement of militant christianity is growing out of a basic miseducation of who Jesus was and what he was about.My main points:God is not a God of War
The Christian God is not a God of War.
Tolerance of other faiths.
Education of other faiths.
There is beauty in Animism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism.This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-08-2005 04:37 PMThis message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-08-2005 04:47 PMThis message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-08-2005 04:52 PM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.AbE: I'm on my way out the door, somebody please POTM this.This message has been edited by Admin, 08-08-2005 05:37 PM

Chris - I was very touched by what you said in your OP and wanted to say something before I forgot (getting old and all).I'm no Christian so forgive me if I this is widely out of whack (and I'm going to proceed on the basic that god exists and so on).It seems to me that something very powerful has happened to you (and again forgive me if I'm reaching) - it seems that you experiences at Camp have really driven home the fact that your relationship with God is just that - a relationship with God. By that I mean, while you can ask your preachers and other spirtual guides for advice, at the end of the day - I think that you will know inside how God want you to act.Em.. I'm going to try and quote Scripture now, forgive me if I get this wrong.

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You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:38:45 RSV)

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Clearly other Christians are not your enemy but it seems to me that Jesus is trying to say that you can reach more people with a postive message of peace and by showing your commitment to your peaceful principles. So I would suggest that when you try and pass on that powerful message, you do it with a smile on your face and without anger in your heart. If you feel you are not making headway with people, try not to feel angry but to concentrate on the positive message that you are going to get across. Trying to preach understanding at the moment is a difficult task but it needs young people like you to drive the message home.Gosh...what a ramble... I hope it made at least a little sense.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 08-Aug-2005 06:00 PM

Amen to that. My ex-wife actually deconverted from being a Southern Baptist because so many Christians use the threat of Hell and "fear God's wrath" tactic.Militant Christians, as well as those who try to convert through fear, need to examine what they are doing and take another look at what Jesus taught. I don't recall Jesus ever threatening people with Hell if they didn't believe in Him. He used His miracles and His teachings themselves to win people's hearts, and Chritianity would do well to take that lesson.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Thanks Chris and welcome back. Ah to have summer and be sent off to camp again when it's not in Iraq. And memories of Vassar, 'twas never the same after 1969. The message of Christianity is pretty simple and far too many make it harder than it is.Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.It really is that simple.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Chris,I know this must have been very hard for you. I found what you wrote very moving. Let me share an experience of mine that I found (and find) moving. It is nowhere near the same class of experience as yours, but I hope it can help.At my church, every Sunday the LEM says the following:"We pray, as Jesus has taught us, for our enemies, and those who seek to do us harm, that their ways may be turned from hatred and violence, and we all may stand reconciled before you."That's from memory, so I might have one or two words off, but I always pay close attention to that part, because I think it cuts to the core of Christianity.What that says is that we care, not about ourselves, but about all. We turn the other cheek. We pray, not just for the forgiveness of our own sins, for help in our own struggles, but for those who seek to destroy us, who hate us. It is a weekly reminder of the meaning of Christianity, the point of it, and it helps to focus my prayers, my thoughts, and my actions for the week. If I can pray of Osama Bin Laden, then surely I can act as a better Christian in other ways as well.So I would advise praying for Osama Bin Laden. Try it out, and you will see how good it feels. I don't pray for his victory, I don't pray that he manages to kill anyone, and I pray just as much for the victims in London, Bali, and Basra. It isn't an anti-American prayer. It's a Christian prayer.Have a good day and I hope this whole experience only strengthens your faith,Chris

Wow Chris. I'm not quite sure what to say, but feel the need to say something here.Like Charles, I am not a Christian, so I hope I am not speaking out of turn here--you should hold on to your faith. I think the world could use more people like you. Keep strong.Take care.

WOW!Your story sounds very similar to a major theological/moral/philosophical experience I once had. When I was younger I was a Christian but I grew up in a liberal christian home. I never believed in hell, and my parents would often quote "In my fathers house there are many mansions.". They believed that meant there was room for all faiths in heaven.This was all well and good until I was enrolled in an evangelical missionary school. I was still in my home country, the Dominican Republic, at the time. My parent's wanted me to get an English education so when we immigrated to the US I would be able to transition to high-school easily.Anyway, it was a crazy experience! Those guys preached a militant brand of Christianity that left a sower taste in my mouth. I always knew something was wrong with it but it wasn't until years later I would understand what.Eventually, when I was enrolled in an American High-School, my old schoolmates invited me on a trip with them to some kind of church thing. I agreed, wanting to see my friends again and thinking it would be like some sort of youth fair or something; it wasn't. What I went to was this: ForbiddenEssentially they packed us all into a giant concert hall for two 8 hour days while preachers came out and preached incessantly at us ending each sermon with a pitch for their books. Heck even the little "prayer book" they handed out was full of ads in the back.The worst part was when they began to perform little skits about other religions (skits depicting why those religions are wrong) and of course they basically painted all other faiths in black-face. Making a mockery of Hindu beliefs, other Christian denominations, Islam, and so on. I was so aghast at the intolerance.I realized that what was wrong with the whole thing was IGNORANCE. They found shelter for ignorance in their religion and it sickened me. However, unlike you, I didn't find strength in my faith, I lost it all together.I became agnostic that day. As time has gone on I have become more atheist/agnostic.This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-08-2005 07:03 PM

Yeah, Aquire the Fire is pretty sick. IMHO it is the antithesis of what Christianity is. No one should have to suffer Infomercial Theology.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Chris, it sounds like you had a tough time with some politicized beleivers, but maybe one good thing came out of it?You had to get back into the Bible after not really delving into it for a year.Jesus said we will suffer, and have trials and tribulations, and there is no getting around that. Stay close to Him and He will sort it out with you.On the specific issues, war is part of this world and will from time to time crop up. It is a horror, and we should find other ways to resolve issues, but keep in mind Jesus didn't spend his time preaching against the Roman system and military. He showed a better way.America is not worse than Rome, and in many ways America is a force for good in the world, but regardless, we are called to be Christian brothers first and Americans only somewhat later down the line.I guess what I am saying is you may find you change some of your political views over time, and you may at times disagree with various Christians on politics, but that's secondary to the cause of Christ.Christianity does not mandate we be Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals or whatever. We just have to follow Christ. On Iraq, I tend to think it is probably a good thing for Iraq overall, but maybe not so good for America.Loving your neighbor can include getting rid of tyrants, especially if you helped maintain the tyrant awhile back, but irregardless, I don't think we should judge one another for having different political opinions.As a young man, I despised Reagan for what he did in Central America, which I still think was morally a horrible chapter in our nation's history (which predates Reagan by the way). But now, I tend to think Reagan did do a lot of good in helping pave the end of communism in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe and for his tax cuts. Politics sometimes is a choice with no perfect choice available. It's not like we have Jesus up there to support for political office. So we must make the best decision we can among a limited set of examples.Bush has a lot of support from Christians for reasons such as abortion, taxes, etc,...and frankly because many Christians see the democrats as hostile to Christianity.I am like you and believe that forced conversion is definitely not Christ-like, but I would strongly hesitate to defend most of Islam, particularly Saudi Arabian Islam (Wahabbism) and other forms which are excessively cruel. Defending such extreme, barbaric and cruel practices is not wise. Islam's problem is that for much of Islam, they do believe forced conversion and forced adherence to their faith is acceptable and godly, and that's wrong, irregardless of what religion you are in.Using violence to force people to submit to your religion and convert is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, and unfortunatelty for much of Islam, creating Islamic states and imposing Sharia is part and parcel of the religion. Mohammed was also a general, not just a prophet. Jesus was not a general, nor did his followers take up arms. There seems to be built-in differences in the founding Leaders of these faiths, one violent and political (MOhammed) and another, peaceful and non-political.I'll let you judge which one is right.This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 07:30 PM

Since this seems to be becoming a thread to tell stories of faith, I'll share mine.I was raised in a fairly conservative Christian family. My late grandfaterh was a principle at a private Christian school in Michigan - and my parents were students.The first time I was given reason to question Christianity was when I was in the 9th grade. My class went on a trip to Boston. While we were there, some friends and I pitched in together and purchased a book on Buddhism from a street vendor, as we were all interested in mythology and world religion. As soon as we finished the purchase, a man came up to us, pushing pamphlets into our hands, and said, "You know you're wasting your time with that garbage, right?"I was so offended by his words that I still get angry thinking about it now. What right did he have to try to force his religion on others, or to tell someone that their faith is "garbage?!"My second experience was with my grandfather. As I mentioned, he was a very conservative Christian (he didn't even allow his children to play cards because the Joker symbolized the Devil to him, and the school he ran didn't allow dancing - they had "dinners" instead of school dances. That's right - no prom for my parents). As he got older, he became more and more the streotypical "Hellfire" Christian. My cousins and I used to play the card game Magic: the Gathering, as well as good old Dungeons and Dragons. Yes, we are all geeks. Anyway, my grandfather would occasionally come down and ask "Playing that Devil's game, again?" When we poijnted out that the games had nothing to do with Satanism, he responded with "Well, it isn't a Christian game!" I very much wanted to point out to him that his nightly Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy were hardly Christian games, either, but I held my tongue - he was my grandfather, after all.That same summer, I learned that he had told my aunt and uncle, who did everything for him (lawn care, household things he could no longer do himself, fixing his garage door when he accidentally backed his car through it), that they were going to Hell. He began telling various family members, his own children and grandchildren, that they were damned.That summer was the last time I spoke to him. I couldn;t stand to speak with someone so judgemental, who said such horrible things to people he supposedly loved. After a few years went by, I started to want to call him, so that I could forgive him and have my grandfather back. I even tried a few times to call him, but always managed to call when he was gone. A few years ago he passed away (I was in Dallas when the shuttle exploded waiting for my plane to his funeral).My experience with that man in Boston, and then my own grandfather, prompted me to examine my own faith and beliefs. As I said in my previous post, my ex-wife actually deconverted becuase of Christians like these. After a lot of soul-searching and reading from the Bible (as well as various online resources and lurking in a message board or two) I determined that I simply interpreted God's wishes differently from the fire-and-brimstone Christians. Rather than turn away from Christianity, I simply turned away from organized Christianity, and developed my own personal relationship with God. Instead of breaking my faith, as these people almost did, my experiences have actually made it stronger, and helped me to better define exactly what I do believe.I now believe that God is loving and good. I believe that the Bible is not literally true, but holds some of the most powerful wisdom in the world. I believe that "love thy neighbor as you love yourself" is the most powerful and important commandment, and that "convert thy neighbor with the threat of hellfire" is not a commandment at all.Thank you for sharing your story, Chris. I found it to be moving and powerful, and wish you all the best.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Not sure about Gottama Buddha, but several Buddha's since have preached it, and the Four Boundless Attitudes are part of Buddhism, this text seems to indicate that they were in Gottam's teaching

1. unconditional love
2. compassion
3. sympathetic joy
4. equanimity

Sounds like this but not quite the same as your version.Well, I have nothing constructive to add, just thought I'd chime in.Take care.

Bravo dude!Keep your faith, it is strong. Your trials can represent about 90% of the debates that go on in this forum. You even have people who don't believe in God telling you to keep your faith, that is powerful.What I noticed most about your post is that you mentioned that Jesus was the only one who taught about love, and to tolerate all religions.What are your reasons to tolerate all religions?
I do because I feel I should not judge them, but for myself. I will also not judge the people who believe in them.But something was said to me once, and since I do not know enough about other religions, and you said you have studied them, I will ask you if this statement has some truth to it. I was once told that other religions are based only on part of the truth, that is what makes them successful, but not completely fulfilling. Maybe they are missing the love part? We were just kind of discussing this in another thread.One more thing that stood out to me, as I see in many people who have perils with their faith. Of all the things that you mentioned, that you were battling with, not one of them was the faith itself, or anything that Jesus said. It was all MAN, and his narrow minded interpretation of the truth. Man does not represent God, even though we are created in his image. What we do with that image lies on our own shoulders. We cannot find God in people, but only in his Holy word. To me, you seem to be doing a great job of interpreting his word.

I've been a Christian for something over 25 years and have encountered some rather strange ideas but nothing like that. Congratualtions for using your God given wisdom and working your way through it.

I feel so blessed and privileged to be able to read from all of you, the advice and the stories.I know it's not really debating much but I guess I needed a release.I'm glad I did post it though because I feel that connection between everyone that posted on this. Thank you so much.Charles: Thanks for the advice, you're right. I get pulled in and get fired up pretty easy when it comes to personal convictions lol. I'm too arrogant.Rahvin: Thank you for mentioning Christ's methods, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, he never scared people with his words. Thank you for your story of how you dealt with people similiar to the ones I discussed with.Jar: Thanks for saying that. Too bad I'm preaching to the choir. I guess that's what I needed though.cmanteuf: That's a great prayer. I think I was born into being Osama bin Laden's enemy, I respect him to an extent but I no longer believe his motives are pure. They could be though. Turning his world into a corporate wasteland.I think he's our enemy (as in someone that kills people you know or of your culture) not on our own accord but because of the lack of every American's voice in America. Or that voice gets corrupted and silenced by a media that sabotages its own people.That is a great prayer fundamental for everyone.Michael: Thanks for one of the best compliments I've ever had.Yaro: Yeah, If I ever get into a place like that in life, I'll speak out. Thanks for warning me. The impresion of their website I get is like a testimonial from an "on fire" christian that loves to gloat about his experience. Thanks.randman: I would have to look into Islam more honestly, it's strange though. Members of Islam have said christianity was founded by the sword. With examples of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. You say the same for Islam, and you could refer to the Ottoman Turks violence and "take-over" and maybe the Leader himself but I think there are examples of misrepresentation and disgrace in every faith.I know the tolerance shown by Muslims to Jews and Christians is worthy of much praise.I know that Muslims have great dedication to God. Even moreso than most christians probably. I admire how they pray 5 times a day, I respect that so much.Modulous: That's it I think. I'm glad you posted that.A different kind of love?

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Love here is the wish for beings to be deeply well and joyful and to possess the inner causes of such joy(inmost virtue).

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Love to be enlightened. But more. To see that people are always in joy.A line paraprhased:
Those that scream for the death penalty is not righteous, but illusory. pg 7 I think.So that is love. That is the same, universal love.Amazing wow thank you.

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I have nothing constructive to add

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I needed that knowledge. It was most definitely constructive.Riverat: Thanks I would like to think I;m doing a good job interpreting the word.But hey I was just proven wrong, The Buddha preached love, a love I should say. Maybe Jesus delved more into the social interaction of love?Thanks for the encouragement GDR.-Thanks everyone that took the time to talk to me like I've said I feel blessed.This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-08-2005 10:52 PM