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Author Topic:   What Made God to Create the Universe?
JOSEPH OUMA OINDO
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (156127)
11-05-2004 6:53 AM


THE UNKNOWN PRINCIPLE
In the Sacred Scripture, it stands written that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and all that is in it. This is an irrefutable truth that can never be doubted. It is the same God who set and arranged the solar system into place. The place itself was made by God. But, who is God? The term God refers to the Highest and the Incomprehensible Principle underlying the existence of the universe. Since nothing can exist without a reason, God is literally the reason why all that is, exists. When I use the term nothing, I do not mean emptiness, but nothing in this case refers to something.
Having come to the realization that God is the creator of the universe, then we are left with a very strange and difficult inquiry: Why did God create the universe?
In this inquiry, we must first of all bring to light, the nature of God. What is God made of? This is clearly a wrong question because to be made of something presupposes materialism but God is not of this nature. To dig into the metaphysical nature of God, we have to indulge ourselves into the realm of ideas and minds.
God is metaphysically a pure Mind. An Absolute Mind in which all other minds derive their being. In the mind, there are ideas and since God is an Absolute Mind, He is also an Absolute Idea, which contains other ideas. An Absolute Idea and an Absolute Mind are synonymous. We cannot differentiate the two since they are absolutely identical in essence and existence.
Although God is of such a nature, there must have been an idea in His Mind, which propelled Him to create the universe. And this now leads us to properly investigate what kind of an idea it was.
In the Absolute Idea/Mind, there are countless ideas and minds. Allegorically, God must be understood as a Big Box containing other smaller boxes. But, these smaller boxes differ in size and importance. Therefore, there must be a box, which the Big Box do not even know or understand. In simplicity of language, I would say that in the Absolute Mind (God) there must have been a mind, which even the Absolute Mind do not know and this is the mind which propelled the Absolute Mind to create the universe.
God does not know this mind because the two are completely identical both in essence and existence. Therefore, it appears that God just found himself creating the universe without actually knowing the reason why He was doing so. This statement again needs an explanation for some of the distinguished philosophers may ask me the meaning of creation.
In the strict sense of the word, creation understood in the sense of bringing into being that which did not exist, is not possible. Therefore, God is like a big, dark and limitless cave from which all things, found in the universe, flow out like water flowing from a cave. But, does this mean that God does not know Himself? Or is He able to detect that things are flowing out of Him? This is a dangerous inquiry for now, and it will be discussed in the next article, God and Himself
Out of God (likened to a cave) things flow under a guiding mind/idea. This mind/idea, which makes it possible for this flow of things from God, is the one, which I had described above. This idea/mind is completely unknown to God and to us and from this moment, I will refer to it as the Unknown Principle
After dealing with the universe as a whole, let us now come to our own planet, earth. When you look around, you will detect strange behaviors among the human beings. Some go to school, some to work and other just sit and recreate.
But, have you ever asked yourself why people are behaving like this? There must be a reason, which is unknown to us, making us to behave the way we do. This reason, is the Unknown Principle. Or, why do people eat? Some of you may answer by saying that they eat because the stomach is demanding its rights. But, why is that stomach of yours demanding its rights hence making you to eat? It is all because of this Unknown Principle
Now, let me try and explain what this Unknown Principle might be, in human terms. In our everyday life there is one word in the English dictionary which we do not really know what it is and this is the word love. I have often heard a baby boy telling his father that he loves toy-cars. A baby girl tells her mother that she loves oranges and chocolates. A young man tells his girl-friend, I love you from the bottom of my heart.
The question then follows, What do all these people mean when they say I love this and that? What is this thing called ‘love’? Love is the principle underlying all human actions. Even thieves steal because they love stealing and they love sustaining themselves lest they die of hunger. Love can then be equated to the Unknown Principle which I have been referring to.
It was through love that the universe came into being. It is the primordial reason underlying the existence of all that is. We only get glimpses of love, but LOVE, in itself and by itself, we do not know. LOVE is that which melts the heart of both animals and human beings to nothing. In animals, it operates in a strange manner and is often referred to as instinct. LOVE is that which all things aim at. It is the internal movement that moves the external movements. LOVE, sets the whole heaven into ecstasy.
But, what is the nature of this principle called LOVE? First of all I have to state explicitly that the word LOVE is a human derivative and does not really point to the Unknown Principle that I am describing. This Principle defies expression. It cannot even be properly named in human terms and as a result, it is often misinterpreted and mistaken. In naming it, we are setting limits to it and how can we set a limit to that which is limitless. Being limitless presupposes that it is spiritual. It is a pure idea. At best, an Absolute Mind/Idea. This Unknown Principle must be what human beings call LOVE
Moreover, since this Principle is unknown to God because they are absolutely identical both in essence and existence, then LOVE (the Unknown Principle) and God is just but the same thing. If this is true, then, IS GOD LOVE, or LOVE IS GOD?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 12:11 AM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied
 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 11-19-2004 10:29 PM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied
 Message 10 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-20-2004 12:02 PM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied
 Message 17 by Zachariah, posted 12-06-2004 11:10 PM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 17 (156175)
11-05-2004 10:51 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
By the way, Joeseph, welcome to EvC.
I'm a bit concerned that you will get few if any replies to this post. You obviously put a lot of effort into it.
I wasn't going to promote it at first since, to me, it is pretty much giberish. However, that may be because of my lack of training in the area of theological philosophy so I've moved it for others to comment on. You clearly worked hard at it.
When introducing new and perhaps complex ideas to others you might have to water it down a bit to make it easy for some.
The same problem arises in the science oriented threads. Sometimes very good information isn't accessible to the lay folk because it uses words they are not familiar with.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-05-2004 11:29 AM
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-05-2004 11:30 AM
{Edited topic title to eliminate the ALL CAPITAL LETERS format - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-05-2004 12:03 PM

  
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 17 (161350)
11-19-2004 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO
11-05-2004 6:53 AM


I don't know about the entire universe, but I think I know why He made the world. God made the world so that we could be tested by devil so that in the end, we would choose between the devil and God. He wants us to CHOOSE Him and love Him with our free will. I could expect that there are other people somewhere in the universe that for the same reason that earth exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO, posted 11-05-2004 6:53 AM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 10:18 AM TheClashFan has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 4 of 17 (161459)
11-19-2004 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by TheClashFan
11-19-2004 12:11 AM


Re:
quote:
I don't know about the entire universe, but I think I know why He made the world. God made the world so that we could be tested by devil so that in the end, we would choose between the devil and God. He wants us to CHOOSE Him and love Him with our free will. I could expect that there are other people somewhere in the universe that for the same reason that earth exists.
Sounds very much like a scientific experiment to me.
quote:
"Despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage"
PY
This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 11-19-2004 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 12:11 AM TheClashFan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by TheClashFan, posted 11-19-2004 9:04 PM PurpleYouko has not replied
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 11-20-2004 11:36 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
TheClashFan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 17 (161636)
11-19-2004 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PurpleYouko
11-19-2004 10:18 AM


Re:
Lol, I could agree with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 10:18 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 17 (161673)
11-19-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO
11-05-2004 6:53 AM


JOSEPH
In the Sacred Scripture, it stands written that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and all that is in it. This is an irrefutable truth that can never be doubted
I do not mean to contradict you but I do doubt that this is a truth at all much less irrefutable.
The term God refers to the Highest and the Incomprehensible Principle underlying the existence of the universe
God is metaphysically a pure Mind. An Absolute Mind in which all other minds derive their being. In the mind, there are ideas and since God is an Absolute Mind, He is also an Absolute Idea, which contains other ideas. An Absolute Idea and an Absolute Mind are synonymous. We cannot differentiate the two since they are absolutely identical in essence and existence.
How is it that you are able to give a description of god in one paragraph after calling god an "incomprehesible princple" in a previous sentence?
Although God is of such a nature, there must have been an idea in His Mind, which propelled Him to create the universe. And this now leads us to properly investigate what kind of an idea it was.
In the Absolute Idea/Mind, there are countless ideas and minds. Allegorically, God must be understood as a Big Box containing other smaller boxes. But, these smaller boxes differ in size and importance. Therefore, there must be a box, which the Big Box do not even know or understand. In simplicity of language, I would say that in the Absolute Mind (God) there must have been a mind, which even the Absolute Mind do not know and this is the mind which propelled the Absolute Mind to create the universe.
God does not know this mind because the two are completely identical both in essence and existence. Therefore, it appears that God just found himself creating the universe without actually knowing the reason why He was doing so. This statement again needs an explanation for some of the distinguished philosophers may ask me the meaning of creation.
I htink that it would be good of you to define for us what you mean by mind in this instance?It is also curious for myself that you can presuppose the existence of an "absolute mind" that even your god is unaware of. Perhaps you are dealing a little too much in speculation here no?
But, have you ever asked yourself why people are behaving like this? There must be a reason, which is unknown to us, making us to behave the way we do. This reason, is the Unknown Principle. Or, why do people eat? Some of you may answer by saying that they eat because the stomach is demanding its rights. But, why is that stomach of yours demanding its rights hence making you to eat? It is all because of this Unknown Principle
Now, let me try and explain what this Unknown Principle might be, in human terms
You are saying that you are unaware of the way the body works to produce the sensation of hunger or the psychology behind human motivation? I do not think there is any "unknown principle" however I think that you have not done much in the way of research into human beings and the vast levels of scienctific investigation into various levels of human beings and their physiology and motivations.
In our everyday life there is one word in the English dictionary which we do not really know what it is and this is the word love. I have often heard a baby boy telling his father that he loves toy-cars. A baby girl tells her mother that she loves oranges and chocolates. A young man tells his girl-friend, I love you from the bottom of my heart.
The question then follows, What do all these people mean when they say I love this and that? What is this thing called ‘love’? Love is the principle underlying all human actions. Even thieves steal because they love stealing and they love sustaining themselves lest they die of hunger. Love can then be equated to the Unknown Principle which I have been referring to.
You really have not explained anything here concerning love you have merely designated it as being equivalent to a phrase you term "unknown priciple".
But, what is the nature of this principle called LOVE? First of all I have to state explicitly that the word LOVE is a human derivative and does not really point to the Unknown Principle that I am describing.
Now you are backpedaling on your assertion from the previous paragraph.
This Principle defies expression. It cannot even be properly named in human terms and as a result, it is often misinterpreted and mistaken. In naming it, we are setting limits to it and how can we set a limit to that which is limitless. Being limitless presupposes that it is spiritual. It is a pure idea. At best, an Absolute Mind/Idea. This Unknown Principle must be what human beings call LOVE
How can you say it {unknown principle} must be what human beings call love after stating that it cannot be properly named in human terms.Sounds like you really do not understand what you are talking about and are throwing out esoterical opinion without any real basis to it.
I am not trying to be demeaning but you do need to be more critical of what you are asserting.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-19-2004 10:30 PM

"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO, posted 11-05-2004 6:53 AM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 7 of 17 (161783)
11-20-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by PurpleYouko
11-19-2004 10:18 AM


Re:
PurpleYouko
Sounds very much like a scientific experiment to me.
Could you explain how you think that an experiment is given here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 10:18 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 11-20-2004 11:52 AM sidelined has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 17 (161784)
11-20-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
11-20-2004 11:36 AM


An Experiment?
Maybe I know what is being hinted at. The only kind of God that I can imagine (and that makes some kind of sense and wouldn't be considdered insane by us) is one who set up some complex initial conditions and enjoys watching the ever surprising outcomes.
Like watching Conway's "Life" unfold but literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 11-20-2004 11:36 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 11-20-2004 12:01 PM NosyNed has not replied
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 Message 13 by lfen, posted 11-22-2004 1:33 PM NosyNed has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5933 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 17 (161786)
11-20-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
11-20-2004 11:52 AM


Re: An Experiment?
NosyNed
Ah I see now. I thought they were hinting at a an experiment that could be tested in the real world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 11-20-2004 11:52 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 17 (161787)
11-20-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO
11-05-2004 6:53 AM


because he was lonely. otherwise he would not have walked with us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JOSEPH OUMA OINDO, posted 11-05-2004 6:53 AM JOSEPH OUMA OINDO has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 11 of 17 (162328)
11-22-2004 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
11-20-2004 11:52 AM


Re: An Experiment?
quote:
Maybe I know what is being hinted at. The only kind of God that I can imagine (and that makes some kind of sense and wouldn't be considdered insane by us) is one who set up some complex initial conditions and enjoys watching the ever surprising outcomes.
Exactly! Maybe the reason he doesn't step in is because he is doing some kind of research project that he is publishing in some pan-dimensional journal of deities or something. Any outcome is valid so even if he becomes attached to any given person, he won't directly help them because that would fudge the data.
Ever kept an ant farm? Ever deliberatley put 2 kinds of ants together to see what happens?
PY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 11-20-2004 11:52 AM NosyNed has not replied

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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 12 of 17 (162329)
11-22-2004 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by PurpleYouko
11-22-2004 11:00 AM


Re: An Experiment?
Just so as you realize it, the last post was not intended to be a valid hypothesis
Then again... Who knows for sure?
PY

This message is a reply to:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4703 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 13 of 17 (162358)
11-22-2004 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
11-20-2004 11:52 AM


Re: An Experiment?
The only kind of God that I can imagine (and that makes some kind of sense and wouldn't be considdered insane by us) is one who set up some complex initial conditions and enjoys watching the ever surprising outcomes.
Ned,
This is very much in line with the Hindu concept of "lila" the play of God. The idea that the universe is the play of God, things being created and then destroyed over and over for the joy of play like children making sandcastles. The watching is the primordial consciousness, what Franklin Merrell-Wolff called consciousness without an object.
Anyway, it's just interesting to me that you have apparently come up with an analogous concept.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 11-20-2004 11:52 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 11-22-2004 1:41 PM lfen has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 14 of 17 (162360)
11-22-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by lfen
11-22-2004 1:33 PM


It's anthropomorphising
The only thing I'm doing is putting myself in the place of God. The idea of the omnisicent Christian God is ,to me, untenable. He would be so utterly bored. It is no wonder he got up to such nasty mischief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by lfen, posted 11-22-2004 1:33 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4703 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 15 of 17 (162369)
11-22-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
11-22-2004 1:41 PM


Re: It's anthropomorphising
I don't recall anything about God being bored but a rough statement of it is that consciousness gets so caught up in the play that it forgets it's just play and that it is the source of the play and takes the whole impermanent drama for "real". Thus in the Advaita view awakening solves the problem of suffering when the individual consciousness realizes it is the primordial consciousness and has been lost in it's own play. This theme is one of the reasons I love Shakespeare so much (see my signature)
lfen

the great globe itself, yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve; and,
like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind. We are
such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a
sleep. -- Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act IV

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