Heretics - Reverend Carlton Pearson

This morning, I listened to the "This American Life" podcast on the way to work. I kept thinking, "Damn, Jar would love this."So I'm just throwing up a link to the site, so he (and other people) can listen. NPR's description blurb sums it up well...

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The story of Reverend Carlton Pearson... an evangelical pastor in Tulsa, Oklahoma. His church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the Reverend, he was denounced by almost all his former supporters, and today his congregation is just a few hundred people. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse... he stopped believing in hell.

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The hour-long program doesn't so much chronicle Pearson's struggle with the idea of eternal torment, but concentrates on the Oklahoma evangelical community's response to Pearson's "Gospel of Inclusion." Very interesting listen, and right up the alley of a few people here.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

If there's no hell, what is God supposed to do with all teh gheys!?!?!

You joke, but that's a good chunk of the response. Except it's... ironically... more all-inclusive than that. To the effect of, "If there's no Hell, what's the point of this whole religion?"

The point of most religions is to keep the flock on the straight and narrow.That can be for the good of the flock or for the good of the shepherd. It can be done with a stick (threat of hell) or a carrot (promise of heaven).Funny that most religions don't think of appealing to reason: stay on the straight and narrow because that's the best way for all of us to get where we're going.

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Thanks Dan. I was aware of Bishop Pearson but had not heard that interview. I'd answer that the point depends on the religion. If, as I believe, the message is that we should try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong, to honestly evaluate what we do do and when we screw up, try to make amends and not repeat the same mistake, then the point is that that is a pretty good way to live life.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

For believers in religion, the 'straight and narrow' is the road to heaven. It is simply a means to an end. When you (Ringo)say 'straight and narrow' it sounds like the road is the end in itself, and heaven is the 'carrot' that is held out to people to trick them onto the road. It is a subtle difference, maybe. But when you think of the 'straight and narrow' road being the end in itself, it gives rise to all sorts of questions. Is religion (God, heaven, hell) all a trick created by man to trick people into behaving? If so, what is the aim in getting people to behave? What is the 'straight and narrow'? Is it a set of rules and laws that benefit us and or a human leader?I think this is an important difference when discussing hell. On the one hand, people are just afraid of going to hell. On the other hand, people are afraid of not going to heaven. Going to heaven is not just a place in some realm, it can also be a state of union with God. The opposite extreme is fear of eternal seperation from God, which is thought to be 'hell' in itself. The 'straight and narrow road' in this case, is the 'carrot.

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For believers in religion, the 'straight and narrow' is the road to heaven. It is simply a means to an end. When you (Ringo)say 'straight and narrow' it sounds like the road is the end in itself, and heaven is the 'carrot' that is held out to people to trick them onto the road. It is a subtle difference, maybe.

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Actually, the difference isn't subtle. But Ringo (hey, I'm gonna put my words in your mouth, Ringo. Do you mind?) isn't speaking of the beliefs of the practitioner of the religion; he is speaking of the social purpose that the beliefs serve.Sure, the believers motives are that they want to go to heaven and not go to hell. But why should they believe that there is a heaven to go to and a hell to avoid? Why have a religion that teaches that a heaven and a hell exist?Well, the purpose for such doctrines are obvious. They reinforce social norms. It is necessary for the stability of society that people follow the social norms. So a belief that following the social norms will allow a person to go to heaven and a belief that violating the social norms will lead to hell will go a long way toward motivating people to continue to follow the standard social norms.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Sure religions are a creation of man. I'm not sure trick is the right word, but religions such as Christianity are certainly just human constructs.Religions are definitely designed to get people to behave, but that covers a very broad range of motives. Often it is to get folk to contribute money to help the preacher live better. Sometimes it is to get folk to work in a society or clan. Often it is to establish a communion.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Why do you suppose there are so many commandments about what we should do in this life? If all we want is to be "close to God", the commandments are redundant. Why don't we all just die as soon as possible and get to our "real" goal? Often, yes. Sometimes the aim isn't to get people to behave, but to cash in on their misbehaviour. I have suggested before in other threads that the primary purpose of the levitical sacrifices was to feed the priests. I have also suggested that the rules and regulations were set up in such a way as to be impossible to obey - to ensure a regular supply of barbecued ox.So any attempt to remove the punishments is considered heretical by the orthodox. We've had some recent threads on what people think heaven will be like. The way most religious people describe it, it would be hell.

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We've had some recent threads on what people think heaven will be like. The way most religious people describe it, it would be hell.

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Like Dante's version? Sitting in a big amphitheater staring at God for all eternity?

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Maybe the idea is to keep people in the religion so it gets propagated. I have sometimes wondered if religions are really about themselves rather than their adherents or their deities. On the other hand, maybe they are chiefly another scheme whereby the few get to dictate to the many. (ie "politics by other means")

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On the other hand, maybe they are chiefly another scheme whereby the few get to dictate to the many.

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"Cultural hegemony," he whispered ever so softly.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Religions are complex and we are always limiting ourselves when we try to define "the Purpose" of religion.To try to keep this somewhat related to the topic, Carlton Pearson ran into trouble because he asked some of the basic questions anyone should ask about religion.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It struck me that there is probably no obvious benefit for a member of a religious community to ever reduce the number of things he says he believes in.A member of a church claiming to be a little more faithful, a little more fearful, a little more literal will give the impression of being a 'better' member, to the extent that people associate more with better. Rev Pearson's problem could be simply that he decided to believe less than he believed before; I suspect that in the minds of people searching for deeper faith, it looked like a desertion.Put another way; we are more impressed by jugglers who can juggle six balls than those who can juggle only three. By dropping the flaming sulfurous ball, Rev Pearson just didn't impress the crowds any more.It seems to me that fundamentalist belief may often be the result of a gradual 'ratchet' effect, where people are allowed to express a deepening sense of religious feelings such as awe, faith, communion, or devotion, but where feelings of moderation or indifference are not rewarded or accepted. The idea will be familiar to evos as a memetic selection pressure.This creates problems. For honest Christians searching for truth, there is a real risk that a moderate belief, honestly reached through study and reflection, will be greeting with shouts of 'more! more!'

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And you shall know the truth,
and the truth will set you free.
-- John 8:32