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Author Topic:   Is God Omnipresent?
R. Cuaresma
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 86 (293863)
03-10-2006 6:07 AM


May I have this postulate be presented.

"God is omnipresent," how will you interpret this? On the topic, "The Problem of Evil" one participant claimed that evil is simply the absence of God. But if God is omnipresent He must always be present even if the "evil" thing is around. And, if God is everywhere there is no place where He is not present, and so, how can He be absent when evil is present? Now, if evil is simply the absence of God, then God is not all-present? What do you think?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-10-2006 10:37 AM R. Cuaresma has responded
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 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 03-10-2006 1:00 PM R. Cuaresma has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-10-2006 8:35 PM R. Cuaresma has not yet responded
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 86 (293868)
03-10-2006 6:31 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

You're not going to win any writing quality awards for that message 1, but I can follow what you're saying.

I don't follow the "Faith and Belief" type topics very closely, but this one seems to be exploring at least a bit of fresh ground. That's a plus in getting it promoted.

Others can now list off the existing relevant topics that cover this matter. :)

Adminnemooseus

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-10-2006 06:37 AM


    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 86 (293929)
03-10-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by R. Cuaresma
03-10-2006 6:07 AM


what does OmniPresent mean
and what support is there for God being OmniPresent?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-10-2006 6:07 AM R. Cuaresma has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-11-2006 9:13 AM jar has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 86 (293936)
03-10-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by R. Cuaresma
03-10-2006 6:07 AM


nope.
if God is everywhere there is no place where He is not present, and so, how can He be absent when evil is present? Now, if evil is simply the absence of God, then God is not all-present? What do you think?

I think the conclusion would be that God is NOT omnipresent.


Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 5 of 86 (294001)
03-10-2006 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by R. Cuaresma
03-10-2006 6:07 AM


quote:
And, if God is everywhere there is no place where He is not present, and so, how can He be absent when evil is present? Now, if evil is simply the absence of God, then God is not all-present?

Another possible conclusion is that evil does not exist.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12172
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 86 (294164)
03-10-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by R. Cuaresma
03-10-2006 6:07 AM


Evil needs a carrier
God may well be all present. Evil is present as a disembodied spirit in many places (not all) as well. Evil needs a carrier, much like a germ or virus needs a carrier. Evil is allowed to flourish in the absense of acknowledgement and surrender to Gods Spirit.

If I became a porno junkie, I could never claim that the devil made me do it. It would be my responsibility because, as a believer, I did not allow Gods Spirit to over-ride my carnality and subsequent idolatry.

We have no scientific way to determine if God is present everywhere at all times---there is no geiger counter for the Holy Spirit.
It is thus a Faith issue, although seeing as how there is no way to disprove it either, we have an unanswered question.

When Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris gunned down the victims at Columbine High School, where was God?

I believe that God was with the victims, and the news tells us that Klebold and Harris either committed suicide or shot each other.

God was available but was unwanted by these killers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-10-2006 6:07 AM R. Cuaresma has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chronos, posted 03-11-2006 1:33 PM Phat has responded
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R. Cuaresma
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 86 (294252)
03-11-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
03-10-2006 10:37 AM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
Omnipresent is one of the attributes of God aside from being "Omnipotent" and "Omniscient." Because we believe that God is the creator of everything He must have the attribute of always being there in all places at the same time. But this attribute must be limited to following:
1. God is present in both past and present times.
2. God is present in both the spiritual and material world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 03-10-2006 10:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-11-2006 1:22 PM R. Cuaresma has responded
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-12-2006 12:30 PM R. Cuaresma has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 86 (294284)
03-11-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by R. Cuaresma
03-11-2006 9:13 AM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
Well, you replied to me, but i still know no more than I did before.

Because we believe that God is the creator of everything He must have the attribute of always being there in all places at the same time. But this attribute must be limited to following:
1. God is present in both past and present times.
2. God is present in both the spiritual and material world.

What does that mean? What does that have to do with evil except to say that if true, God is evil?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-11-2006 9:13 AM R. Cuaresma has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-12-2006 8:11 AM jar has responded

  
Chronos
Member (Idle past 4303 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 9 of 86 (294286)
03-11-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
03-10-2006 8:35 PM


Re: Evil needs a carrier
Evil needs a carrier, much like a germ or virus needs a carrier. Evil is allowed to flourish in the absense of acknowledgement and surrender to Gods Spirit.

Do you consider natural disasters to be evil?

This message has been edited by Chronos, 03-11-2006 01:34 PM


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 86 (294288)
03-11-2006 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chronos
03-11-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Evil needs a carrier
Chronos writes:

Do you consider natural disasters to be evil?

Goldfinger said, "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."

Natural disasters are happenstance, maybe even coincidence.

Walt Kelly said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

We are the carrier. The buck stops here.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12172
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 86 (294293)
03-11-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chronos
03-11-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Evil needs a carrier
Chronos writes:

Do you consider natural disasters to be evil?

No. Natural disasters are inanimate events. Evil needs animation, or life within which to carry out whatever it is that evils "purpose" is.

The Holy Spirit, IMO and Belief, is everywhere...without limitation...

while evil disembodied spirits need bodies in which to animate their purpose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chronos, posted 03-11-2006 1:33 PM Chronos has responded

Replies to this message:
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Chronos
Member (Idle past 4303 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 12 of 86 (294299)
03-11-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
03-11-2006 2:01 PM


Re: Evil needs a carrier
No. Natural disasters are inanimate events. Evil needs animation, or life within which to carry out whatever it is that evils "purpose" is.

To you, what distinguishes evil events from bad events? We agree that natural disasters can be bad, correct?

The Holy Spirit, IMO and Belief, is everywhere...without limitation...

while evil disembodied spirits need bodies in which to animate their purpose.

So, if the Holy Spirit is living inside of every virus, harmful bacteria, volcano, lightning bolt, asteroid, tidal wave, etc, is it animating them with its own purposes?

Also, can humans be evil on their own accord, or only via demons?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 03-11-2006 2:01 PM Phat has responded

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R. Cuaresma
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 86 (294432)
03-12-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
03-11-2006 1:22 PM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
Do you mean God is evil?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-11-2006 1:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 03-12-2006 10:13 AM R. Cuaresma has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 86 (294466)
03-12-2006 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by R. Cuaresma
03-12-2006 8:11 AM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
I'm trying to find out what YOU mean. You said...

Because we believe that God is the creator of everything He must have the attribute of always being there in all places at the same time. But this attribute must be limited to following:
1. God is present in both past and present times.
2. God is present in both the spiritual and material world.

If what you say is true, that "God is the creator of everything" and that "He must have the attribute of always being there in all places at the same time" and

1. God is present in both past and present times.
2. God is present in both the spiritual and material world.

and evil exists, then YOU are saying that GOD is evil.

If that is not what you are saying, then perhaps you can explain?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-12-2006 8:11 AM R. Cuaresma has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by R. Cuaresma, posted 03-13-2006 7:00 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12172
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 15 of 86 (294493)
03-12-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chronos
03-11-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Evil needs a carrier
Chronos writes:

So, if the Holy Spirit is living inside of every virus, harmful bacteria, volcano, lightning bolt, asteroid, tidal wave, etc, is it animating them with its own purposes?

Phat writes:

IMHO, the Holy Spirit is not "animating" or "energizing" these things. We would need to be able to quantify and define what spiritual energy is before we could know for certain. Its been done in the movies (Ghostbusters) but so far not in real life conclusively.

Also, can humans be evil on their own accord, or only via demons?

Phat writes:

Humans are unfortunately more than capable---and responsible--for their own actions. Demons--defined as any spiritual energy that is NOT the Holy Spirit--only add to the actions. It would be similar to germs thriving in an area of the body that is not healthy.The germs were not the cause of the "ulcer" but by thriving there,(in an area of poor circulation, perhaps) they ensure that the Ulcer never heals. Its like H.Pylori bacteria.

The Bible only states that (regarding Jesus)

NIV writes:

John 1:3-5
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Perhaps what jar is asking is that if God is light, how can there be any "darkness" at all if God is omnipresent?

It follows that God allows darkness to exist...both in the natural references to the term as well as the spiritual references.

In reference to the Bible verse above, have you ever heard of a natural shadow "understanding" anything? Apparantly, since God is everywhere, the darkness and the shadows are notplaces to hide so much as they are regions to freely deny or disbelieve the reality of the omnipresent light.

This message has been edited by Phat, 03-12-2006 10:28 AM


Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This message is a reply to:
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