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Author Topic:   Why try to disprove people's beliefs?
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 1 of 72 (457477)
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


This has bugged me for a long time now and I want to know other people's thoughts on it.

Why do some atheists try to disprove God?

Why do some Christians try to prove God?

{This message was message 3 of the "Proposed New Topic" of the same title. - Adminnemooseus}


"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17

If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?


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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3860 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 2 of 72 (457479)
02-23-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Insecurety in their own points of view?

Insatiable desire for debate?

Adiction to the feeling of superiority they get when the oposing side runs out of good replies?

These are just some of the possible reasons


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3911
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 72 (457480)
02-23-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Everyone, now be nice
I certainly had reservations about releasing this topic as presented, but here it is.

Now let's see how nice the membership can be to each other.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change ID.


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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3780
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 4 of 72 (457482)
02-23-2008 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Adminnemooseus said in the PNT
Adminnemooseus writes:

I think the short version answers to your questions are:

1) People love to debate about most anything.

2) Most people probably don't care about others personal beliefs as long as they're kept personal. When those beliefs are used to try to influence public policy is a whole nother thing.

Source

I somehow find myself fully agreeing with the above quoted.

Moose


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6836
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 5 of 72 (457483)
02-23-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Why do some atheists try to disprove God?

Why do some Christians try to prove God?

Well, the most obvious answer (not necessarily the correct one) is that these people sincerely believe what they do, and that they are merely informing other people of the truth. The truth is often its own justification for advocacy.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 72 (457492)
02-23-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


CJ writes:

Why do some atheists try to disprove God?


I've actually never tried to disprove god before in my life. That's impossible to do.

What I've tried to do is try to inject people with a healthy dose of skepticism, especially when child abuse in the name of religion is involved.

Why do some Christians try to prove God?

Because it is entirely possible to do. They just haven't been able to do it yet.

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 7 of 72 (457494)
02-23-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


Why do some atheists try to disprove God?

Why do some Christians try to prove God?

Of course, some people on both sides of the debate try to prove or disprove God, but since that has historically been quite impossible to do (althought that doesn't mean that it is impossible), I think the best thing to do is to get people to really question why they believe what they do (or don't). To get them to think through their argument logically. A "personal experience" with a supernatural deity is difficult to think through logically, so some concentrate on getting such people to think through their theological positions (such as, "how do you know that it was the Christian God that saved you from that car wreck and not Shiva").

Many times such debate serves to strengthen one's position. I know that my own has been.


"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea


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CK
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 8 of 72 (457495)
02-23-2008 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 6:03 PM


I'm not interested in disproving god - I am interested in stopping dangerous entities like the Christian religion getting too strong of a hold on my country.

Thankfully we've got the CofE pretty much beat.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6836
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 9 of 72 (457496)
02-23-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jaderis
02-23-2008 7:32 PM


...[Proving the existence or non-existence of God] has historically been quite impossible to do....

Actually, it is quite possible, even easy to do. All one has to do is start with the right set of premises, and the desired conclusion follows. As I try to tell people (like rulerofthisuniverse), it's not that the proofs are necessarily invalid logically -- we can't tell whether or not they are sound because we can never really determine whether the premises are true or not -- especially in topics that seem to promote word salad like the existence or non-existence of God.

But maybe this is what you meant.

Now, if people want to talk about demonstrating the existence or non-existence of God in a evidence-based scientific (or at least in a science-like) manner, that is different. In my opinion, the non-existence of the Biblical/Toranic/Qur'anic God is amply demonstrated. But that's just my opinion.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6836
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 10 of 72 (457497)
02-23-2008 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
02-23-2008 7:34 PM


And you're lucky that you have the US as an example of of the very things you fear to show to your fellow citizens.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

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iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 11 of 72 (457498)
02-23-2008 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jaderis
02-23-2008 7:32 PM


Jaderis writes:

A "personal experience" with a supernatural deity is difficult to think through logically, so some concentrate on getting such people to think through their theological positions (such as, "how do you know that it was the Christian God that saved you from that car wreck and not Shiva").

"How do you know that you are not a character in some alien kids Playstation game" is the equivilent & opposite I tend to use. If a materialist can simply suppose that what he perceives as reality is reality then there is no reason I can think of why I can't do the same.

My own goal is not to attempt a proof (for only God can truly prove God) but to overcome objections (God commanded/commended rape) or drive objections to stalemate.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1631 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 72 (457499)
02-23-2008 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
02-23-2008 7:34 PM


CK writes:

Thankfully we've got the CofE pretty much beat.


What the hell is "CofE"?

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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6836
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 13 of 72 (457500)
02-23-2008 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
02-23-2008 8:00 PM


Church of England. The official state church of the lower portion of Great Britain.


If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 14 of 72 (457502)
02-23-2008 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
02-23-2008 7:51 PM


If a materialist can simply suppose that what he perceives as reality is reality then there is no reason I can think of why I can't do the same.

And if it is pointed out to you that "materialists" do not "simply suppose that what they perceive as reality is reality", and that in iny case, "he does it too" is not a justification for sloppy thinking, what's your second-best excuse?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 72 (457504)
02-23-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
02-23-2008 8:06 PM


Dr A writes:

And if it is pointed out to you that "materialists" do not "simply suppose that what they perceive as reality is reality",

That is exactly what they do. And once they do, they set about pointing to things they suppose to be real in ordre to demonstrate the reality (they suppose to be real) is real.

in any case, "he does it too" is not a justification for sloppy thinking, what's your second-best excuse?

I don't need one. The objection has been driven to stalemate.


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