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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 303 (397486)
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


I wanted to ask if creation science is valid at all, but this is too broad of a question. Obviously most here think that the method of creation science is not valid, as it does not follow the scientific method, or at least the people doing it seem not too.

But in all the years so far that creation science has been around, has there every been any solid (objective) evidence that the world was created?

I ask this question because believe it or not, in my church I am an outspoken component against mentioning things of science in church, or things like orbs in pictures, and gems found on peoples lawns are evidence of God. I speak against "proving God", or more correctly, "objectively proving God"
I am not well liked when I speak these things out, and I have been told that people can believe what they want to believe, and I guess they obviously can say whatever they want to say. I am not comfortable with that. About the only one that really has a realistic view on it, is the senior Pastor, and when I point these things out to him, he corrects himself, and realizes that the church should not be promoting these ideas.

I am planning on approaching the entire elder committee, and Pastors, as well as the core leaders (I am one of the core leaders) on this matter, but I want to put it together in a manor that they will realize that what they are doing is incorrect. Answering this question is one step in that direction.

This whole issue may determine if I stay in the church or not. This is a difficult decision, as I influence many people, and I am a mentor for many.

I had a meeting with my Senior Pastor, and explained this to him. He will accept what I give him, and consider it. If it is truth, then he will present it to the church, as it would probably go over better coming from him. With your help, I can help rid one church of phoney miracles, and possibly preaching about creation science. But I need to get my facts on order.

I already have the proof about orbs in pictures, and enough evidence about the phoney gems. Also, the phrase "proving God" should be eliminated for obvious reasons, as nothing in science is ever "proven."

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 04-26-2007 9:03 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 04-26-2007 9:21 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 12:29 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2007 1:32 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 05-02-2007 10:50 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 80 by kuresu, posted 05-08-2007 6:10 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 238 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-01-2007 3:20 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 303 (397489)
04-26-2007 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


Leading The Way
You are finding yourself in an interesting situation, Rat. I have grown to believe that I can never "prove" God on an intellectual and/or empirical level. I believe that God is evident in my heart and through my spiritual growth, however. Both you and I know that as believers, we have been taught that neither God nor creationism can ever be proven. (at least I don't think so.)

Does that make our faith any less valid as Christians? IMO, No.

BTW, where do you want to go with this topic? What is your central question?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3 of 303 (397495)
04-26-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


I would echo the sentiments of AdminPhat in Message 8. You seem to be wrestling with issues revolving around how intertwined faith should be with evidence. I would suggest one of the religious forums, probably Faith and Belief, and perhaps a title change to "Evidence and Faith".


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 4 of 303 (397572)
04-26-2007 4:03 PM


My central question is in bold, and yes I agree with you phat.

faith and belief sounds fine, and changing the title is fine with me also.


riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 303 (398710)
05-02-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Admin
04-26-2007 9:21 AM


I changed it around a bit, can we promote it? I want to move on this subject in my church.

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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 6 of 303 (398721)
05-02-2007 10:56 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

jar
Member
Posts: 31750
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 7 of 303 (398737)
05-02-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


yes the world was created.
There is absolute proof that the world was created.

It exists.

The question is "How was the world created?"

And we are learning more and more each day about that question.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 15615
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 8 of 303 (398760)
05-02-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


I think that you need to be clear on exactly what you are asking.

By "the world" do you mean the planet Earth, our Universe or something else ?

By "created" do you mean that some intelligent entity somehow had a hand in the origin of the world - perhaps indirectly - or that an intelligent entity directly made the world or even that the world simply had an origin ?

Taking the liberty of assuming that you mean to ask if there is solid objective evidence that an intelligent entity directly constructed the planet Earth I would have to answer that there is none that I am aware of.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 05-02-2007 10:08 PM PaulK has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 303 (398849)
05-02-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
05-02-2007 1:32 PM


By "the world" do you mean the planet Earth, our Universe or something else ?

By "created" do you mean that some intelligent entity somehow had a hand in the origin of the world - perhaps indirectly - or that an intelligent entity directly made the world or even that the world simply had an origin ?

I think we should go with the creation science definition found in wikipedia for this discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science

I do not agree with jar, the fact that the earth exists, is not proof that it was created. It is proof that it exists, as we percieve it, and nothing more

The creation of the bible, and of God, is saying that He made something from nothing. This is what creation science is trying to find out and prove.

I do not even agree with this. I feel that if you were truely performing creation science, you would be looking for unbiased evidence that the world was created, doesn't matter by who.


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 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2007 1:32 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 05-02-2007 10:25 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 11 by jar, posted 05-02-2007 10:49 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 05-03-2007 2:36 AM riVeRraT has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1626 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 303 (398856)
05-02-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
05-02-2007 10:08 PM


riverrat writes:

I do not even agree with this. I feel that if you were truely performing creation science, you would be looking for unbiased evidence that the world was created, doesn't matter by who.


You are still getting this wrong. True science doesn't start out with a conclusion. If the term "creation science" doesn't demonstrate conclusion first, I don't know what is.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31750
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 303 (398860)
05-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
05-02-2007 10:08 PM


The creation of the bible, and of God, is saying that He made something from nothing. This is what creation science is trying to find out and prove.

That of course is impossible and pointless.

We can learn how the Earth was created, in fact we already have a pretty good idea of that. We can find examples of planet forming areas. Unfortunately we will not live long enough to actually observe the whole process but will likely be able to observe many of the stages.

So we do know that the Earth was created.

I do not even agree with this. I feel that if you were truely performing creation science, you would be looking for unbiased evidence that the world was created, doesn't matter by who.

As soon as you put the "by" in there, you stop doing science.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 05-02-2007 10:08 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 05-02-2007 10:54 PM jar has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 303 (398861)
05-02-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
05-02-2007 10:25 PM


You are still getting this wrong. True science doesn't start out with a conclusion. If the term "creation science" doesn't demonstrate conclusion first, I don't know what is.

I am not getting wrong. The world exists, that is a fact.
There can be hypothesis that say, the world was created, and then try to prove it, or come up with a theory. I don't know, and I don't care really.

To me, it is no different than knowing cancer exists, and spending all my days trying to find a cure.

The way the creation scientists, and AiG go about it, seem wrong to me. They should label it Christian science, os something else, for the time being until they could prove something.

But your input is not helping me.

I am not here to argue for the validity of creation science, or if creation science is science at all. I am only asking if there has been any valid evidence of the creation of the world, do not turn this into a creation science, is not science thread. Please refer to the op question in bold.


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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 303 (398862)
05-02-2007 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


riVeRrat

But in all the years so far that creation science has been around, has there every been any solid (objective) evidence that the world was created?

What would have to be evidenced in order for us to determine that a planet has been created or not RR?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has responded

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 303 (398863)
05-02-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
05-02-2007 10:49 PM


So we do know that the Earth was created.

Created? No, it was formed, or made, from existing materials.

Created implies that someone or something did the creating, something other than physics, or the laws of the universe. You are drifting off topic.

As soon as you put the "by" in there, you stop doing science.

No you don't. You only stop doing one kind of science. Forensic science studies how people did something, it looks to find the "by".

As I asked Taz, please do not turn this into the cretion science is not science thread.

I am looking for evidence of the world being created, NOT FORMED.


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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 303 (398864)
05-02-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
05-02-2007 10:50 PM


What would have to be evidenced in order for us to determine that a planet has been created or not RR?

I don't know. Isn't that what creation science is trying to prove?

Isn't there always some other explanation for the evidences that creation science always comes up with? One more practical and realistic?

I am turing to the experts for answers.


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 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 05-02-2007 10:50 PM sidelined has not yet responded

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