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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 1 of 161 (449017)
01-16-2008 12:13 AM


I heard this saying recently :that religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been.

I believe many percieve them to be the same. Personally I believe they are totally different just as the saying implies.

Religion is concerned with knowing god and the afterlife.
Spirituality is concerned with knowing self and this life.

Does religion stunt spiritual growth? Does spirituality promote growth? Or alternatively, have they absolutely no connection?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 01-16-2008 7:12 AM pelican has responded
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 161 (449027)
01-16-2008 5:31 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 161 (449034)
01-16-2008 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
01-16-2008 12:13 AM


I actually hate the word spiritual. It gets bandied about the place a great deal in the wrong context.

Spirituality implies some etheric 'spirit' that is somehow distinct from the physical world: much like religion implies some deity (in most cases) somehow distinct from the physical world.

Eigther way you cut it both invoke something distinct from the physical world.

Knowing yourself and the world has nothing to do with spirit; it is simply being self aware and having an ability to be minfull of your self and environment.

Neither spirituality or religiousity are required.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 12:13 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 161 (449050)
01-16-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
01-16-2008 12:13 AM


Definitions
Heinrik writes:

Religion is concerned with knowing god and the afterlife.
Spirituality is concerned with knowing self and this life.

Does religion stunt spiritual growth? Does spirituality promote growth? Or alternatively, have they absolutely no connection?

In my world of definitions, religion is mans set of rules and established dogma. Spirituality is the communion between God and man.

Knowing God helps us to understand ourselves.

Going to church only provides us with the dogma of religion.

Some folks believe that not everyone knows God, but that everyone knows about God. Others believe that God is in everyone and that through the process of getting to know ourselves, we find the inner peace that embodies Him.

Dogma taught me that Jesus was/is the only way to God. Perhaps in seeking to know myself, I am also seeking to know Christ in me.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15245
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 161 (449053)
01-16-2008 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
01-16-2008 7:12 AM


A Matter Of Perspective
Larni writes:

Knowing yourself and the world has nothing to do with spirit; it is simply being self aware and having an ability to be minfull of your self and environment.


Thats assuming, of course, that empiricism is the only path to self awareness.

The zeitgeist surrounding a persons upbringing often becomes the chosen belief system of that person.

Whether or not a spirit or the Spirit exists independently of human imagination and cultural creativity is something we don't collectively know, however.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 161 (449078)
01-16-2008 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
01-16-2008 12:13 AM


it really all depends on how you look at the two subjects.

religion tends to evoke ideas of institutionalized ritual. but it doesn't really have to include such things. and institutionalized ritual doesn't have to involve anything supernatural.

spirituality tends to evoke solitary explorations of self and beyond. but it doesn't have to be hoodoo. spirituality includes such solidly science-defended things such as meditation. while that particular practice is often based on other understandings, meditation-type thought centering practices are widely recognized by the scientific community as having very real benefits. but, they don't come from the hoodoo, they come from yourself.

as far as i'm concerned, religion and spirituality are nothing more than exploring the world around you and taking note of how it affects you. different people have different answers, but all ritual is ritual and all exploration is exploration.

no, i don't mean "science is just another god" but that where we choose to look for answers does not change that we are looking for answers. you may or may not be satisfied with the answers or non-answers you get. that's your issue.


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pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 7 of 161 (449122)
01-16-2008 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
01-16-2008 7:12 AM


Hi Larni, I find your obsevations very interesting but wonder why you HATE the word spiritual? That is a strong feeling over something you don't believe in. Also why do you say that neither religion or spirituality are required? Required for what? We cannot deny their existence.

I see the distinction you make between physical reality and non-physical reality but does that mean spirituality does not exist?

I agree that connoctations of spirituality is 'bandied' about in the most amazing, mythical non-sensical way as far as reality is concerned. No offense intended. However, if spirituality is taken to be all that exists that is unseen, it paints a more down to earth picture.

I am referring only to knowable existence of the unseen, not the imaginary unseen. For example, is the feeling of hate physical? Are any of our emotions physical? Are our minds physical? Are our thoughts, consciousness, subconsciousness, beliefs, egos, perceptions, awareness, imaginations, dreams etc, physical?

They all exist but none can be seen. Could the whole of our unseen, combined, constitute our spirit? Is it not a separate part of us that is housed by our bodies?

A great deal of the emerging spirituality is from the imaginations and not from the whole. It is used as a 'feel better' exercise that is always temporary and has no lasting effect, unless continuously practised or paid for.

There is much confusion, and 'spirituality' appears to be having the same effect as religion in so far as neither use the whole truth and play on the fears of their followers.

The reason I began this thread was in hope that we could come to a sensible working definition of the emerging spirituality. A middle of the road spirituality. A Down to Earth Spirituality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 01-16-2008 7:12 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 8 of 161 (449128)
01-16-2008 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
01-16-2008 9:48 AM


Re: Definitions
Phat, your post indicates you believe the religious dogma. How can you separate religious dogma from your definition of spirituality. You are defining them the same. Both being about god!
How could you have known about god but for the religious dogma? There is no difference.

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 Message 4 by Phat, posted 01-16-2008 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 9 of 161 (449131)
01-16-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-16-2008 9:53 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
PHAT :[Thats assuming, of course, that empiricism is the only path to self awareness.]

Is there any other way taking into account ALL of our senses, not just the physical ones?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by Larni, posted 01-17-2008 3:36 AM pelican has responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 10 of 161 (449147)
01-16-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by pelican
01-16-2008 7:05 PM


The Quote Mine
We only have a few styles to make quotes pop, but when used correctly, they add style to any post.

First we have the classic lines. Many EvC members prefer this one for quoting their opponent.

Just type [quote]Purple is a unique color[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
Purple is a unique color

Next we have the basic box. Many members use this one to quote from outside sources.

Simply type [qs]And it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.[/qs] and it becomes:

And it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.

Our final option, when you want to make sure there is no doubt who or what source you are quoting, just type [qs=purpledawn]Purple is a unique color, and it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.[/qs] and it becomes:

purpledawn writes:

Purple is a unique color, and it is truly a unique individual who holds it dear.

Hopefully this will help you choose which style suits your purpose.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


This message is a reply to:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 3847 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 11 of 161 (449161)
01-16-2008 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by AdminPD
01-16-2008 8:30 PM


Re: The Quote Mine
quote:
ta love

I'm a slow learner

heinrik writes:

Maybe I'm not :)


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 161 (449196)
01-17-2008 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-16-2008 9:53 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Phat writes:

Whether or not a spirit or the Spirit exists independently of human imagination and cultural creativity is something we don't collectively know, however.

Given that there is no evidence that it does exist it is hard to conclude that the Spirit does exist.

Unless you have a good reason to believe otherwise.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 13 of 161 (449197)
01-17-2008 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by pelican
01-16-2008 6:42 PM


Heinrik writes:

I find your obsevations very interesting but wonder why you HATE the word spiritual?

Quite so. My use of the word hate comes from the many people who use 'spiritual' to mean some nebulus magical woohoo. It's the people who say "I'm a very spiritual person" at parties that you edge away from.

Heinrik writes:

Required for what? We cannot deny their existence.

Required to live a decent life. I don't deny religion; belief in gods is well documented. Spirituality, on the other hand is a meaningless buzz word.

Heinrik writes:

but does that mean spirituality does not exist?

Show me positive evidence that it does.

Heinrik writes:

if spirituality is taken to be all that exists that is unseen

If by unseen you mean undetectable, how do you know it is there? If you can detect it it is hardly unseen, is it?

Heinrik writes:

For example, is the feeling of hate physical? Are any of our emotions physical? Are our minds physical? Are our thoughts, consciousness, subconsciousness, beliefs, egos, perceptions, awareness, imaginations, dreams etc, physical?

All these are physical and have physical indicators that can be measured (often by me) in the course of psychological assessments.

Heinrik writes:

They all exist but none can be seen. Could the whole of our unseen, combined, constitute our spirit? Is it not a separate part of us that is housed by our bodies?

See above.

Heinrik writes:

The reason I began this thread was in hope that we could come to a sensible working definition of the emerging spirituality.

Go for it. If you can point to, define and evidence it I will be amazed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 6:42 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:48 AM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 161 (449198)
01-17-2008 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by pelican
01-16-2008 7:05 PM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:

Is there any other way taking into account ALL of our senses, not just the physical ones?

This is an example of woohoo thinking.

All of your senses are physical. We have no non-physical senses. They all detect something in the physical world whether it be electromagnitism or shockwaves propagated through the air: all physical.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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BMG
Member (Idle past 3024 days)
Posts: 356
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 15 of 161 (449199)
01-17-2008 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by macaroniandcheese
01-16-2008 2:48 PM


"My" two cents
no, i don't mean "science is just another god" but that where we choose to look for answers does not change that we are looking for answers. you may or may not be satisfied with the answers or non-answers you get. that's your issue.

This reminds me of what a World Religions professor of mine claimed that spirituality was: something that is in all of us; a "fire of restlessness", a burning and unsettling feeling that there are things that we have yet to understand, and may never quite grasp(the classic being, what is the meaning to life?).

Religion is a particular person's answers(beliefs) regarding their most heart-wrenching questions.

A lot of room for improvement, I know...


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