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Author Topic:   Where is the theological evidence for God's benevolence?
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 39 (192750)
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


(I do not know what the appropriate forum for this would be...)
I am an atheist who feels it is important to have at least a cursory understanding of Christianity, and other religions. So, this is not an EvC question, but a wholly theological question.
Where is the theological evidence for God's benevolence?
Even if I were to say that I believe in the Christian construct, I could never support it:
Hindus and Muslims go to hell for all eternity, despite living lives of virtue and value, simply because their cultural beliefs are wrong? Anyone can live a life of outright abomination, but as long as they truly repent on their death bed they get everlasting paradise?
The OT is filled with examples of God smiting and punishing. Jesus never disavows the OT, but says that love and belief in him now supersede obedience to the law. However, the penalty/rewards are the same. Do it God's way and get heaven, otherwise go to hell for all eternity.
So, let's say I am sold - what's it going to take to put you in a new religion today, eh? - and I believe that Christianity is true. Where is the theological evidence that God is fair, or righteous or benevolent?

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 39 (192781)
03-20-2005 11:39 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 39 (192911)
03-20-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


Hmmmmm
If my question seems loaded, or like a troll, I assure you that wasn't the case. It's just that so far every EvC debate I have ever read, or taken part in (Here and elsewhere) ends up more or less the same way. The faithful still believe, and the doubters still doubt.
I was interested in taking a different path. I was wondering why the God that created us with a nature that tends to doubt what we cannot see, touch, experience with our senses, created a hell to condemn us too, when we behave the way we are programmed? I understand why believers believe, but I don't understand why they believe it's all good, or fair or worth exalting.
Citizzzen

The message is ended, go in peace.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 4 of 39 (192927)
03-20-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


actually. jesus himself claimed to support the old testament. he was a humanitarian. the whole believe and be saved thing came up later with paul, for the most part. but most especially. jesus said he came to save those who needed saving. those who were capable of leading good lives didn't need him, he said. he came for the greedy, the lusty, the proud, etc. he did not come for mother theresa. but jesus never perported himself to be the messiah except in john which is a ridiculous book anyways.
but then i believe in a god who is the source of all things. thus, benevolence is not necessarily a trait of his. wisdom... yes. justice... perhaps. rightness? yes. human "goodness"? never.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-20-2005 11:37 PM

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 39 (192929)
03-21-2005 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 10:36 PM


there are a couple threads
that might contain some answers or information you can use. But remember, it's only a small subset of Christians that believe what you outlined in your OP.
Message 1
Message 1
Look through them and see if they help. If not, please feel free to ask any questions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 6 of 39 (193111)
03-21-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


I am an atheist who feels it is important to have at least a cursory understanding of Christianity, and other religions.
Good.
Where is the theological evidence for God's benevolence?
Do you mean Biblically or experiencially? Biblically the evidence is Christ. Christ was God and Christ was good. He helped everyone He could and He demonstrated by his death on the cross that He is willing to accept anyone who wants Him. He also made it clear that in this present age WE are instruments for either good or evil and that His benevolence flows from those who serve Him. When someone is given hope, peace, and joy through the gospel or when one of his servants feeds and clothes those in need, this is the benevolent power of God in this age. In the next age we will be always face to face with His benevolence.
Hindus and Muslims go to hell for all eternity, despite living lives of virtue and value, simply because their cultural beliefs are wrong? Anyone can live a life of outright abomination, but as long as they truly repent on their death bed they get everlasting paradise?
This is an idea left over from Catholic Christianity. Search the gospels and you will see that this is not the case. We know from the Bible that those who had no opportunity to understand and choose God are not necessarily judged, so anyone who says ALL people who have not believed in Christ will be judged eternally in hell is speaking what they don't know.
Furthermore not everyone's heaven and hell will be the same. We do not have any way to understand either.
And why should someone who repents on their deathbed not be saved? This is also evidence of God's benevolence. Surely we can all recognize the goodness and power of mercy and forgiveness. I have read of Betsie Ten Boom who, in a nazi concentration camp, felt genuine pity for her torturers and prayed for them constantly. After the war was over her and her sister's forgiveness of them moved them to repentant and change their lives.
Jesus was eating dinner at a pharisee's house when a woman known to be a sinner came and poured purfume on his feet and then wet his feet with her tears and wiped it off with her hair. The Pharisee thought that if Jesus knew who she was he would certainly not let her touch him. Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you. Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he cancelled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?" ...... "Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-- for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." Then Jesus told her, "Your sins are forgiven. Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Where is the theological evidence that God is fair, or righteous or benevolent?
Today the evidence is in those who follow his commands to love one another and in the message of the Gospel.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 39 (193217)
03-22-2005 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


god's benevolent now?

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 8 of 39 (193395)
03-22-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


hell
Hi Citizzzen
As I understand it, the idea of "Hell" is only present in the most authoritarian forms of religion (namely organized Christianity and Islam). These are religions that have a strong tradition of hierarchical organization. The organization of the Roman Catholic church, for example, mirrors the hierarchical form of Roman political society. In the church, you have the pope at the top of the tree, then primates, then archbishops, then bishops, etc. etc. which roughly corresponds to the Roman political system, with Emperor at the top, then the consuls, then the senate, patricians, equestrians, etc. In the political arena, prisons and the judicial system are used to control the behavior of citizens. In the religious arena, hell and the judgement of god are used to control the behavior of citizens. The main purpose of prisons and hell is to threaten people into behaving in a way ordained by those higher than them in the social/religious hierarchy.
However if you look at some of the more laid back democratic religions you tend to find a rather more beneficent view of God. As far as I know, Hinduism and Buddhism do not have a "Hell" in the sense of the Christian hell, where you go to be punished after death. Zoroastrianism and modern ("moderate") Judaism basically believe that anybody who lives a kind, ethical life will be "Saved". Some of the small Christian churches (i.e. the Unity church) believe that EVERYBODY goes to heaven thanks to God being nice. And some of the established non-Catholic churches (i.e. the Church of England) believe that Hell isn't actually a punishment, because it's just like "going to sleep" and the only punishment of Hell is not being in the presence of God.
Tick the box of the god you prefer!

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Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 39 (193455)
03-22-2005 3:35 PM


Didn't God create Hell and Sin?
This is a general reply, because I am replying to more than one response...
"...Biblically the evidence is Christ. Christ was God and Christ was good...When someone is given hope, peace, and joy through the gospel or when one of his servants feeds and clothes those in need, this is the benevolent power of God in this age...."
I agree with you that Christ was good, in as much as he helped the poor, the sick and the downtrodden. However, when someone is condemned through the gospel, or arrested because they violate biblical views of morality that to me is no example of benevolence.
"...This (Non Christians being condemned to Hell) is an idea left over from Catholic Christianity..."
This idea of Hell for non-believers may be left over from Catholicism, but clearly it is a dominant opinion of many protestant Christians. Certainly evangelical Christians...
"...Then Jesus told her, Your sins are forgiven. Your faith has saved you; go in peace..."
But if Jesus is God, then the determination of what is/isn't a sin is his anyway. Just because I make the rules, and I allow someone to break them, doesn't mean I am benevolent. This gets to the heart of what I am thinking, if God makes the rules and if Jesus is God, then we still have a universe where God created Earth, Heaven and Hell, and created the means by which people go from one to the other. If being gay or being a Muslim condemns you to Hell,I don't see the benevolence.
"...Today the evidence (of God's Benevolence) is in those who follow his commands to love one another and in the message of the Gospel..."
Perhaps, but people will tell you that denying medical benefits to homosexuals and condemning people to death are scripturally supported. I don't think you can pick and choose among the followers to support an opinion...
(Separate response)
As I understand it, the idea of "Hell" is only present in the most authoritarian forms of religion (namely organized Christianity and Islam).
Which I would bet combines for a large majority of the total religious believers on earth...
Bottom line, as an atheist, I do not see the Bible as sacred. So, when I read that God created everyone and everything (In Genesis) and then shortly thereafter God is sending the Israelites into the promised land to kill the people that were there, I am confused. If God is all knowing, and incapable of mistakes, then an open minded reading of the OT suggests that God is, at best, highly illogical. If Jesus is God, and if Jesus supports the scriptures than I don't see how his death changes the equation. The sins that Jesus died to save me from were only sins because God determined that they were.
No?

Replies to this message:
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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 10 of 39 (193482)
03-22-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Citizzzen
03-20-2005 9:15 AM


The benevolence of God....
....as epitomised by Christ can be read in the NT scriptures.
How does that square with the OT you ask?
Well to some it does, to others like myself it doesn't except with the caveat that the OT is a collection of origianlly unassociated documents by different authors, separated by time. These authors, regardless of how inspired by God they were, were like all humans and allowed their own mores, cultural biases, and prejudices to muddy the message sent to them by God.
That's one of the reasons Christ came - to clarify the issue and exemplify the sort iof life we should all aspire to: a life of selfless love.
However even the NT should be read carefully and, like all scripture, filtered through the teachings that Christ Himself is reported to have taught.
Have a read of Matthew 22: 36-40 and use that as the filter. If any scripture doesn't agree with it then it's probably not correct.
However, regardless what 'evidence' I or others give you, it still comes down to a matter of faith doesn't it?
Would it help if I said that God didn't care what you called yourself or what religion, philosophy or political ideology you followed, so long as you tried to love your fellow human?
Anyhow, that's what I believe.
Cheers mate

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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 1976 days)
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 11 of 39 (193492)
03-22-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Citizzzen
03-22-2005 3:35 PM


'Hell', 'damnation', and 'salvation'
Just a quick response for Citizzzen:
Citizzzen: However, when someone is condemned through the gospel, or arrested because they violate biblical views of morality that to me is no example of benevolence.
It is certainly not an example of human benevolence.
Just remember that any ideology, precept, or belief can be twisted and used by individuals or organisations to furhter their own agendas.
That this happens is a testament to human moral & intellectual frailty, but it isn't evidence against God's benevolence.
Citizzzen: This idea of Hell for non-believers may be left over from Catholicism, but clearly it is a dominant opinion of many protestant Christians. Certainly evangelical Christians...
Hell, or any other supernatural place where eternal punishment is meted out, is not confined to Judaeo-Christian beliefs but is present in many other mythos.
However, the fact that many Christians are taught about such a place does not make it correct (see my comment above).
The idea of Hell as traditionally taught, is as anathema to the teachings of Christ as murder.
I view 'Hell' as being an absence of happiness and of peace brought about by an individual's own choices to separate him/herself from living a life of selfless love. In other words, Hell is what we make for ourselves - not a construct of a benevolent God.
Citizzzen: ...If being gay or being a Muslim condemns you to Hell,I don't see the benevolence.
I would agree with you if this were true. However it isn't.
As I mentioned in a previous post, God - as epitomised by Christ - doesn't care about a person's faith, but rather in a person's love for his/her fellow human. And God doesn't care whether love comes in the form of homosexual or heterosexual love as long as it is consensual and selfless.
No other view makes sense to me in the light of Christ's teachings and life.
Citizzzen: Bottom line, as an atheist, I do not see the Bible as sacred.
I don't see the Bible as sacred either.
However the message contained in it is. But again that's just my opinion.
Citizzzen: If God is all knowing, and incapable of mistakes, then an open minded reading of the OT suggests that God is, at best, highly illogical.
Only if you assume that the OT is literally true and inerrant!
If you view the bible as the compilation of humans (however inspired), then one can readily read it critically and see much of it as the result of cultural, societal & political influence.
That's why a Christ was needed to 'set the record straight' as it were.
Citizzzen: If Jesus is God, and if Jesus supports the scriptures than I don't see how his death changes the equation.
His death was an illustration of the ultimate sacrifice of His teachings of love for ones fellow human.
'Sin' is an often abused word. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to change the word to 'Selfishness'?
Selfishness is the antithesis of Love, and as such is the best example of what really is a 'sin'.
Hope that helps mate?
Cheers

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
--Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.
--Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003)

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 39 (193665)
03-23-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
03-22-2005 2:35 AM


Arachnophilia writes:
god's benevolent now?
To me, He is. Do you think that He is mad at you?
HangDawg, you actually have a minute to talk to us? I would be interested to know how spiritual the students are at your school...I know that they are obviously not religious like everyones parents.
I suppose that observing Christians who live as they believe is a sort of theological evidence for God's benevolence...eh?

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 13 of 39 (193669)
03-23-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Citizzzen
03-22-2005 3:35 PM


Re: Didn't God create Hell and Sin?
Thanks for your reply.
I agree with you that Christ was good, in as much as he helped the poor, the sick and the downtrodden.
Good.
This idea of Hell for non-believers may be left over from Catholicism, but clearly it is a dominant opinion of many protestant Christians. Certainly evangelical Christians...
Yep. I was watching the end of Gladiator the other night with my folks and at the end when he dies my dad says, "too bad he went straight to hell." Of course I quickly reminded him of doctrine his own pastor has taught and he agreed that he did not know what exactly would happen to Maximus.
But if Jesus is God, then the determination of what is/isn't a sin is his anyway.
Yep. We MUST play by God's rules because HE determines what IS real. He determined that gravity, the earth, love, sex, danger, hope, benevolence, sin, the entirety of the universe including human experience would be REAL. It sounds like you are downplaying the reality of sin by saying that it is only a bunch rules. You already play by 99% of God's rules without objection, why should you reject the idea of sin? And even much of what is called sin you would agree is "bad".
Just because I make the rules, and I allow someone to break them, doesn't mean I am benevolent.
Also, I think you are down playing sin here because sin is more than just breaking the rules. It is like an insult and injury to God.
If you love your child and lay down some laws in your house in order to bring your child up right, you are a good parent. If your child in his/her teenage years defies you and rebels then it hurts you, right? And if your child, years later, repents and begs your forgiveness, it would be benevolent of you to forgive him/her and love him/her with all your heart, right?
This gets to the heart of what I am thinking, if God makes the rules and if Jesus is God, then we still have a universe where God created Earth, Heaven and Hell, and created the means by which people go from one to the other.
The means is free-will. But let's not get into a discussion of that. For the sake of argument let's assume as most Christians do that we have free-will. And let's assume that all that is necessary for free-will is consciousness and the ability to choose.
I don't know your take on free-will, but when you pass up a homeless person without helping them or when you lie to your boss, on whom does the responsibility fall? And if you've got 6 billion people neglecting the needy and lying to their boss and doing even worse things, you can see why the world sucks, right?
If being gay or being a Muslim condemns you to Hell,I don't see the benevolence.
Neither of these condemns you to hell. It is your volition that determines who and what you will be and as best I understand it what you become on earth is what you will remain. If you become a vessel filled with hate via Islam, then you will remain a vessel filled with hate after you die. And perhaps it is your hate that becomes your hell until you die eternally at the "2nd death" when the universe is destroyed.
Perhaps, but people will tell you that denying medical benefits to homosexuals and condemning people to death are scripturally supported. I don't think you can pick and choose among the followers to support an opinion...
Well, I try to derive all my opinions from the Bible rather than from those who make the most noise.
If God is all knowing, and incapable of mistakes, then an open minded reading of the OT suggests that God is, at best, highly illogical.
It is illogical. In fact logic has nothing to do with it. Paul calls the cross "foolishness". In fact God made it foolish so that those who believe their own logic to be supreme would not repent.
A relationship with God is about love, not math. The saga of human history is about power and love rather than a logical progression to the perfection of the human race.
God is the supreme everything. He is not merely the supreme logician and mathemetician, but also the supreme playwright, artist, musician, moralist, lover, parent, and human.
If Jesus is God, and if Jesus supports the scriptures than I don't see how his death changes the equation. The sins that Jesus died to save me from were only sins because God determined that they were.
IF God determines that he can only accept you if Jesus pays for your sins, how is this law any less significant than the law that on earth the acceleration of gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 ? ALL that is real is real because God says it's real.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 03-23-2005 12:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Citizzzen, posted 03-22-2005 3:35 PM Citizzzen has replied

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 14 of 39 (193689)
03-23-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
03-23-2005 10:39 AM


HangDawg, you actually have a minute to talk to us?
Heh... yep, I am sick and skipping class.
I would be interested to know how spiritual the students are at your school...I know that they are obviously not religious like everyones parents.
It varies widely. I don't know, but I would guess about 25% to 40% of the students here truly put Christ at the head of their lives all the time. I have met a lot of people here with an awesome relationship with Christ and I have met some who almost completely ignore Him.
I suppose that observing Christians who live as they believe is a sort of theological evidence for God's benevolence...eh?
Yep. I was especially impressed last weekend over spring break when I went to Campus Crusade's Big Break conference in Panama City Beach Florida. The faith, love, and courage of many of those crusaders was amazing. Lots of people's lives were changed on the beach.
[qs]

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 39 (193700)
03-23-2005 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hangdawg13
03-23-2005 12:39 PM


Lots of people's lives were changed on the beach.
LOL
Yup. Some things never change. Lives get changed under the boardwalk too.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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