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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Modulous
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1 of 296 (497472)
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Dear God,
Your followers on Earth have assured me that I will live forever. Sometimes there are conditions placed upon this: including accepting the authority of a certain prophet or following a certain set of commandments. Some of your followers say that I will get eternal life whatever happens, the only difference is where I get to spend that eternal life - in paradise or some kind of torment.

I'm not sure who to believe on those accounts but let us assume that whatever the requirements are that by the time my body has died I have fulfilled them. I have a few questions about this immortality, that I think it is vital you answer for me. Failing that, perhaps you can inspire some of your followers who are members here to tell me.

Do I get a choice?

For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.

Do I grow?

In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:

If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen. The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more. It has been replaced with me aged twenty eight. If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists? *I* don't exist, in that my personality, my beliefs and my goals don't exist any more. So if I do change over time: I don't really care if I have eternal life. It makes no difference since I will eventually no longer exist and a different person will exist.

If I don't change - what the heck is the point of having eternal life? An eternity of stasis without learning, without discovery? That is the most hellish concept I can think of. To even spend eternity in a state of bliss and wonder seems to me to be hollow and pointless gratification if I don't learn or change in anyway.

So God, can you take your offer of eternal life and stick it somewhere dark and unconscious? Either that or explain to me why I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Modulous


Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
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Message 2 of 296 (497480)
02-04-2009 9:56 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 3 of 296 (497482)
02-04-2009 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Dear God,

What he said,

Thanks

CD


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 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 4 of 296 (497483)
02-04-2009 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Hey mod, nice post (again).

There's one thing though. While you may think the idea of an eternal life is a horrible one when it is unchanging (I feel the same way). Who's to say you will feel that way when you actually are living that eternal life? God could make you feel all happy and fulfilled all the time if he wanted to, couldn't he?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 10:45 AM Huntard has responded
 Message 6 by bluescat48, posted 02-04-2009 10:45 AM Huntard has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 296 (497486)
02-04-2009 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Huntard
02-04-2009 10:26 AM


Hey mod, nice post (again).

Thanks :)

Who's to say you will feel that way when you actually are living that eternal life? God could make you feel all happy and fulfilled all the time if he wanted to, couldn't he?

Of course, but I'd shelve that under 'hollow and pointless gratification'. I'd have no choice but to be happy and fulfilled, but if God asked me, aged twenty eight about it I'd turn down the offer. It is certainly no life I'd choose to lead (yes, yes, I didn't have much choice in this one either). Aged sixteen I'd have accepted such an offer in a heartbeat (an eternity of Nirvana - bring it on!). Who knows what I'll think aged twenty-nine?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Huntard, posted 02-04-2009 10:26 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 6 of 296 (497487)
02-04-2009 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Huntard
02-04-2009 10:26 AM


Scenario:

Let's assume there is a Heaven and you get there, but by some quirk of fate, your worst enemy also makes it. Great an eternity of being harassed by him. That's Heaven?¿ sure would seem more like Hell.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 7 of 296 (497489)
02-04-2009 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Hi, Modulous.

I certainly agree with you that an eternity of praising God with trumpets or lounging with 72 virgins feeding me grapes is an extremely anti-climactic way to reward my good service in my mortal life.

However, there is something I disagree with you on.

Modulous writes:

The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more. It has been replaced with me aged twenty eight. If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists?

I would care if that person exists because, even if that person is very different in personality from me, he is still the same as me in perspective. To me, my physical senses are closer to the phenomenon I consider "self" than is my personality. My personality, my opinions and my values will surely change several times in my life, but I will still always see through my own eyes.

To me, that's what I consider "myself," and that's the phenomenon that I would want perpetuated throughout eternity.

Edited by Bluejay, : Too much in the quote box.


-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 11:40 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 8 of 296 (497496)
02-04-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Blue Jay
02-04-2009 11:00 AM


Who are you?
Excellent point. The personality theory of identity does need some grounding. I am not going to follow with an argument against you - but raise a few questions that it might be interesting to explore.

I would care if {the 500 year old future self} exists because, even if that person is very different in personality from me, he is still the same as me in perspective

It sounds like you are arguing in favour of experiential continuity as a definition of identity (or something akin to it). To provide an analogy courtesy of Shelly Kagan, if we are walking alongside a train, although there maybe many different carriages it remains the same train. What is important is some kind of connection from one carriage to another (this is spacial connection).

Kagan continues this analogy by pointing to a car we could point to a brand new car bought in say 1970. It was shiny and new and had lots of horses under its bonnet/hood. Nowadays it sits in a scrap yard, with no wheels and getting the engine to even start would be a miracle. But its the same car, right? It is connected through time with the 1970s new car even though it is very different now.

So you're saying, "but my self has this same kind continuance of 'perspective', so its the same thing just a different part (like the train) or occupies a different time (like the car) of the same thing. It is this thing that I am interested in achieving personality".

It is a strong argument, and of course, this is a matter of personal preferences.

However, imagine in 5,000 years (forget supernatural realms, lets just imagine really good medicine) you were still alive. Only you hated the jews, thought women were stupid, and believed that anybody who discussed the philosophy of self with people from England deserved death. Instead, you loved torture, Jesus* Mohammed, crack, and flower arranging. Would you regard this, now, as immortality of Bluejay?

Well, I find that problematic even though you may not. The question I'd be interested in getting to, if you can disentangle it is, "Who/what is the entity that has this perspective that Bluejay wants to preserve?".

If we were to duplicate Bluejay perfectly - which of the two Bluejays has the perspective that present day Bluejay wants to preserve? Both of them? Or, is there anyway for the Bluejay 'perspective' to no longer exist, but for all other elements of Bluejay's personality to continue? Can Bluejay's personality and values change so greatly that the 'perspective' is no longer Bluejay's?

An analogous question would be, if over the 40 years of owning the car, every single component had been changed (including the chasis, the engine, etc etc) - is it the same car?

Edited by Modulous, : *My memory triggered an alarm, isn't Bluejay some variety of Mormon? In that case loving Jesus would not be a big change...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Blue Jay, posted 02-04-2009 11:00 AM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Blue Jay, posted 02-04-2009 2:12 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 9 of 296 (497497)
02-04-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
02-04-2009 10:45 AM


Modulous writes:

Of course, but I'd shelve that under 'hollow and pointless gratification'. I'd have no choice but to be happy and fulfilled, but if God asked me, aged twenty eight about it I'd turn down the offer. It is certainly no life I'd choose to lead (yes, yes, I didn't have much choice in this one either). Aged sixteen I'd have accepted such an offer in a heartbeat (an eternity of Nirvana - bring it on!). Who knows what I'll think aged twenty-nine?


Ah, ok, I see. Then I kinda agree with you, I don't think such a life very meaningful at this age either (I'm 26 by the way). Curiously, when I was younger it seemed a very nice thing to have also, ah how experience and wisdom changes us. But the possibility I change my mind is a very real one, so for now, count me in with your position.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 10:45 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 374 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 10 of 296 (497498)
02-04-2009 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by bluescat48
02-04-2009 10:45 AM


bluescat48 writes:

Let's assume there is a Heaven and you get there, but by some quirk of fate, your worst enemy also makes it. Great an eternity of being harassed by him. That's Heaven?¿ sure would seem more like Hell.


It would if mine and his feelings would still be the same, however it's entirely possible god changes them and makes us feel very happy and fuzzy to be together. With no way to tell how it's going to be though, for now, I'd hate to spend an eternity with my worst enemy.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by bluescat48, posted 02-04-2009 10:45 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 11 of 296 (497522)
02-04-2009 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
02-04-2009 11:40 AM


Re: Who are you?
Hi, Modulous.

Modulous writes:

It sounds like you are arguing in favour of experiential continuity as a definition of identity (or something akin to it). To provide an analogy courtesy of Shelly Kagan...

I should have suspected that there were people who specialize on stuff like this. And that they had special terminology for it, too.

-----

Modulous writes:

If we were to duplicate Bluejay perfectly - which of the two Bluejays has the perspective that present day Bluejay wants to preserve? Both of them?
Or, is there anyway for the Bluejay 'perspective' to no longer exist, but for all other elements of Bluejay's personality to continue?
Can Bluejay's personality and values change so greatly that the 'perspective' is no longer Bluejay's?

Subjective reasoning is very difficult.

I assume that, if we were to create two identical Bluejays in the future, each would see himself as experientially continuous with present Bluejay (unless one was created without incorporating the original Bluejay's experiences, somehow). I can't imagine that the two would both be somehow bound into one "self," so I imagine that separate, subjective perspectives will continue in both individuals, and each will perceive the world as the same "self" phenomenon as I do now, but neither will experience the other's perspective.

This is too confusing to continue right now. I'll try to post again sometime after I've developed enough perspective to work through this.


-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 11:40 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 12 of 296 (497530)
02-04-2009 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Just a thought
Modulous writes:

Do I get a choice?

...this would be my "bliss." The ultimate choice... the ability to live on for as long as I'd want. How much is enough? :)

Not a choice between eternal life or oblivion that must be made at some specific point. But an ongoing choice... eternal life that I can choose to end if/when I get bored.

Do I grow?

What about growth in a forever increasing/beneficial way? Would that be so bad?

I understand that if the universe is finite, then eternal growth has it's obvious end in bordom.

But what if the universe (or the knoweldge/ideas available to uncover/experience in the universe) is infinite? What if the "goal" is simply to continue learning/growing/changing for the better? And one is able to continually meet that goal, in a benficial way, for the rest of eternity?

Yes, I see that you could say "I'll never meet my goals" in the sense that one will never reach "perfection" or "all knowledge" if knowledge is infinite. But what about such a scenario in the sense of the goal being the journey sort of thing? That way the goal is continually being met and changed at the same time.

I see the problems you speak of... never reaching goals, unchanging goals, eventual change into "negative" aspects... but what if all that was avoidable as described above? Or is there another problem I'm not accounting for?

If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists? *I* don't exist, in that my personality, my beliefs and my goals don't exist any more. So if I do change over time: I don't really care if I have eternal life. It makes no difference since I will eventually no longer exist and a different person will exist.

But what if you're not ever "so radically different"? That is, what if there are an infinite number of ways to "have fun", but certain parts of your personality never need to change significantly?

I suppose what I'm not understanding is how you're concluding that, given enough time, you'll change into something "radically different" or be horrifically bored. I do not see why one can't have plenty to do for eternity (given an infinite-type universe) and not alter their personality significantly?

Or are you saying that even if you have lots of different things to do, you'll eventually get bored of "being you?" That's certainly a possibility, I suppose, but I don't see how it's inevitable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 13 of 296 (497552)
02-04-2009 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Stile
02-04-2009 3:00 PM


Re: Just a thought
What about growth in a forever increasing/beneficial way? Would that be so bad?

By whose definition of beneficial? My current definition, or a future definition? I'm sure what I would regard as beneficial growth will be different in five hundred years than it is now - at least I'd hope so: that's kind of the dilemma.

But what if you're not ever "so radically different"? That is, what if there are an infinite number of ways to "have fun", but certain parts of your personality never need to change significantly?

Then, to be honest, I'm not interested in that kind of infinite life. I would want to be able to look back on myself aged twenty eight and think of myself as an entirely different person with different goals, beliefs, values, agendas, personality. But in so doing, I am stating that I want to rid my current personhood of its immortality.

The kind of life of existing largely as I am now, having fun or keeping myself amused/happy whatever seem to me to fall under the 'hollow and pointless gratification' category.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1723 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 14 of 296 (497560)
02-04-2009 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
02-04-2009 4:16 PM


Re: Just a thought
Hopefully after getting my VAT return sorted I will be able to contribute properly to this thread, as it is a subject very close to my heart.

For now, just a passing thought: in KSR's Mars trilogy, we see the surviving members of the original 100 grow to great age through the use of the "rejuvination" techniques discovered in Red Mars. However, their memories of their earlier times continue to fade as they age. I found this profoundly sad, and my initial excitement at the idea of such longevity was severely curtailed. As a young child I came to the conclusion that an experience unremembered is a tragedy, and I'm not sure I've really changed my mind on this...


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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 15 of 296 (497611)
02-05-2009 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Re Dear God,
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

Dear God,

The gentleman the OP is addressed to wrote you a love letter.

He tells you in Genesis 1:26, 27:

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

You are created in the image of God.

God is everlasting.

Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God is everlasting and since you are in his image then you are everlasting also. You don't have a choice

You are going to last forever somewhere.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Everlasting life with God if you so choose.

Everlasting contempt with the devil. No choice required.

Modulous writes:

I'm not sure who to believe on those accounts but let us assume that whatever the requirements are that by the time my body has died I have fulfilled them.

The love letter says this:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Everything you need to get to heaven is contained in those three verses.

Modulous writes:

I have a few questions about this immortality, that I think it is vital you answer for me. Failing that, perhaps you can inspire some of your followers who are members here to tell me.

Modulous writes:

1) Do I get a choice?

Sorry Mod as pointed out above you have no choice.

Modulous writes:

For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.

No one forces you to do anything It is your choice although limited.

Modulous writes:

Do I grow?

That depends on your choice.

Modulous writes:

In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:

The rich man in Luke is given for an example.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That rich man still wants that little bit of water.

Mod I agree if heaven was as you present it I don't think I would care to go there myself.

But that is not what the New Heaven and the New earth will be like.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We shall be like HIM.

These are promises to those who have met those requirements you mentioned.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus went flying through the sky and space. He had appeared in rooms that had locked doors. He had appeared suddenly to people.

He had a glorified body. When He comes we will get a glorified body.

At this time we will have a perfect body, a perfect spirit and all knowledge.

After the Great White Throne Judgment God will wipe away all tears

Then we will have a new heaven (universe) and a new earth.

There will be no more sea only a river that flows from the throne of God to water the land. On each side of that river will be the tree of life, which bares twelve manner of fruits.

This throne shall be in the New Jerusalem, a city of 1500 cubic miles. Whose streets are pure gold. I own a mansion in that city.
You could too.

Time will have ceased as you and I know it and there will remain now.

Since Jesus was 33 1/2 years old at the accession we should be like that. So you don't have to worry about growing old. There will be no sun to count days by as God will be the light as He was in Genesis 1:3.

I will be omnipresent which means I could travel instantly anywhere in that universe I so desired. What a trip that would be.

I Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Paul did not know me because my imagination is pretty big.

What if God would let me create my own universe?

What an experience that would be.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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