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Author Topic:   Biblical atrocities... ????
John
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 65 (27301)
12-19-2002 12:18 AM


First off I think this passage is out of context as far as applying to the heading rape.

The oldest copies of the OT is a Greek translation of the Hebrew (now lost) known as the septuagint. Below is a translation of Lev. 19:20 put out by http://www.Onlinebible.net (Highly recommended software!)

20 And if any one lie carnally with a woman, and she should be a home-servant kept for a man, and she has not been ransomed, and her freedom has not been given to her, they shall be visited with punishment; but they shall not die, because she was not set at liberty.

Notice that both are to be punished, not one or the other. The KJV actually renders this as "scourge"

quote:
-So I think this has to do with sleeping with a slave girl who belongs to someone else, has not been freed from their slavery or is otherwise married or pledged to someone else.

Thank you for highlighting the ownership of humans as if they were chattel.

quote:
-They cannot be put to death for this crime because the woman is a slave. So this doesn't have directly to do with rape. Unless you have an objection.

Think funkie. Slave == no rights, no say in the issue. Yet is to be punished the same whether she consents-- emotionally, because physically there was no choice-- or not. Her consent is not even considered. It isn't an issue. Notice that the focus is on what the MAN DOES TO THE WOMAN?

quote:
-Also worth noting is that rape is not condoned, God doesn't say go ahead and rape young virgins.

Not here anyway.

quote:
What were you getting at with Numbers 31 ?

Numbers 31 is the story of conquest and the division of the spoils, which includes women and children. If you think the women were taken as chaste and platonic helpers, you are very naive.

9 And they made a prey of the women of Madian
11 And they took all their plunder, and all their spoils, both man and beast.
15 And Moses said to them, Why have ye saved every female alive?
17 Now then slay every male in all the spoil, slay every woman, who has known the lying with man.
18 And as for all the captivity of women, who have not known the lying with man, save ye them alive.
25 ∂ And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
26 Take the sum of the spoils of the captivity both of man and beast,
35 And persons of women who had not known lying with man, all the souls, thirty-two thousand.

Really, funkie, this is pretty blatant.

quote:
Would you rather that they left them behind after they had killed all the men? In this particular point in time there were much more savage foes than the Israelites, who would definately take advantage of these defenceless women and children. Probably helped add to the gene pool too, avoiding deformities and all.

Can you really stand yourself? This is pretty twisted. First, kill all of the sons, brothers and husbands in the whole town, then justify it by saying there are other people who would "take advantage of these defenceless women and children." You mean take advantage like the Isrealites did? Very sick, Funk. And the clencher, yes Funk, kidnapping virgins to take for wives would definitely add to the gene pool? Does this make it not rape? Or should I be very afraid of you?

quote:
Considering the culture I think this is pretty honourable. The women are provided for, they are given time to grieve their loss and offered a new beggining. If things don't work out then she is free, cannot be sold or treated as a slave. Again we see that God wants to provide for the children and the widowed.

Ok. Lets see. First:

11 and shouldest see among the spoil a woman beautiful in countenance, and shouldest desire her, and take her to thyself for a wife,

Do you notice the taking part funkie? Do you notice that the woman is a 'spoil'? Do you know what rape is?

14 And it shall be if thou do not delight in her, thou shalt send her out free; and she shall not by any means be sold for money, thou shalt not treat her contemptuously, because thou hast humbled her.

Kidnap. Bang her. Decide you don't like her. Kick her out. Forget about it. Kick her out into a country and among a people she doesn't know. Guess what, funk, this is a death sentence or the start of a good job in the whorehouse.

quote:
Okay for one thing this kind of crime can never really be attoned for, the pain and suffering of this woman and her family is something that a man cannot reverse.

Agreed.

quote:
However he is now responsible for that girl, he has defiled her. The silver to the father is something like a dowry, considering his daughter is defiled and would likely not be married off otherwise. In this culture what would you do if you were not married and your father and mother died, you would be in a terrible position. So to kill the man for this crime would solve nothing. Better that he marry her and never be able to cut her loose. In this way he makes some atonement to the family and to the young woman.

Ask a rape victim if this would be satifactory. This works perfectly well if you don't care what the victim feels, and if you think in terms of valuing women for the babies they make and controlling them so they only make YOUR babies.

quote:
In this particular case John I believe that this is speaking of Sisera's army.

Deborah, a prophetess, is singing a song about this event, and includes a matter of fact reference to the taking of captives.

quote:
-Umm what? Samson chose a Philistine woman for a wife, his parents understandably would rather he married an Israelite woman. However he wanted this Philistine woman, which turned out to be his undoing. What was your problem here? Sorry not sure.

You so easily miss things like:

Take her for me, for she is right in my eyes.

Control, power, taking--- that sort of thing.

quote:
Still is not commanded by God, or condoned. It seems to be just history.

Behold my daughter a virgin, and the manís concubine: I will bring them out, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes; but to this man do not this folly.
25 But the men would not consent to hearken to him; so the man laid hold of his concubine, and brought her out to them; and they knew her, and abused her all night till the morning, and let her go when the morning dawned.
26 And the woman came toward morning, and fell down at the door of the house where her husband was, until it was light.
27 And her husband rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went forth to go on his journey; and, behold, the woman his concubine had fallen down by the doors of the house, and her hands were on the threshold.
28 And he said to her, Rise, and let us go; and she answered not, for she was dead: and he took her upon his ass, and went to his place.
29 And he took his sword, and laid hold of his concubine, and divided her into twelve parts, and sent them to every coast of Israel.

You have a man offering his daughter and another woman to be raped.
The potential rapists didn't want the deal so the man, the Isrealite, through the concubine out anyway. They raped her until down, she crawled back and died on a doorstep, was thrown on an ass and chopped into pieces.

Its just history? Why record this? What the hell place does this have in a morality tale? Well, my guess is that it is meant to make the Isrealite fear their neighbors. But half of this nightmare was committed by an Isrealite and God makes not one peep about it. How many 'neutral' stories of graphic rape could I write before you started to think I might not should hang out with your daughter? Why didn't God say something? It was acceptable behavior at the time for the people.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 5:28 AM John has responded
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 10:43 PM John has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 65 (27327)
12-19-2002 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
12-19-2002 12:18 AM


John just three quick things in passing. (I'm not at all dodging this post just way past my bedtime leaving to see the family tommorow) Here is a quick version of my take on the O.T. I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man. This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people. Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them. The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to. Going to get some rest. Take care John.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 12-19-2002 12:18 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 12-19-2002 9:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded
 Message 4 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:59 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 11:15 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 65 (27344)
12-19-2002 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 5:28 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
John just three quick things in passing. (I'm not at all dodging this post just way past my bedtime leaving to see the family tommorow) Here is a quick version of my take on the O.T. I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man. This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people. Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them. The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to. Going to get some rest. Take care John.


I think that to read the OT and not notice, or to attempt to justify the bloodthirsty, cruel, disgusting things that God commands or condones is simply unbelievable.

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-19-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 5:28 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 65 (27356)
12-19-2002 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 5:28 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man.

Funk, God shows the corruptness of man BY NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT ?????

quote:
This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people.

No kidding.

quote:
Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them.

This is not relevant to the topic. Perhaps this is one intent of the OT. However, God TELLS his people why they are going to be punished-- what they did in turning away from him-- and it doesn't ever involve God having a problem with slaughter and slaving except in a few cases where God gets pissed that they DIDN'T kill every man, woman and child.

quote:
The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to.

So your argument is that kidnapping, rape, slaughter, and slaving is OK because of the time in which they lived? Well, funk, if God's law is eternal, that makes it ok now too doesn't it?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 5:28 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 11:09 AM John has responded
 Message 34 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 8:18 PM John has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 65 (27359)
12-19-2002 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by John
12-19-2002 10:59 AM


Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:59 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by John, posted 12-19-2002 11:23 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Chara, posted 12-19-2002 2:44 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 65 (27364)
12-19-2002 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 11:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--


What is this supposed to be?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 11:09 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 12:41 PM John has responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 65 (27372)
12-19-2002 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by John
12-19-2002 11:23 AM


That is supposed to mean that god sent Christ down to die for our sins. Somehow, that is supposed to make everything ok.

Why death means squat to a god is beyond me. Even if Jesus spent three days in Hell for the sins of humanity, so what? According to many in the Christian community, people spend an eternity there.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by John, posted 12-19-2002 11:23 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-19-2002 1:37 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded
 Message 51 by NeoPagan, posted 01-06-2003 4:34 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 65 (27378)
12-19-2002 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Mr. Davies
12-19-2002 12:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
That is supposed to mean that god sent Christ down to die for our sins. Somehow, that is supposed to make everything ok.

Yeah. That's the part I don't get. How exactly is this supposed to make it ok? And how does this address the OT reign of terror?

quote:
Why death means squat to a god is beyond me.

I know what you mean. When you know you are going to come back, death kinda loses it kick.

quote:
Even if Jesus spent three days in Hell for the sins of humanity, so what?

One day for God is like a thousand years. Maybe each day of those thousand years is also a thousand; and so on and so forth.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 12:41 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 8:07 PM John has responded
 Message 33 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 8:08 PM John has not yet responded

  
Chara
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 65 (27388)
12-19-2002 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 11:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--



This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.

I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.

*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.

[This message has been edited by Chara, 12-19-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 11:09 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 5:51 AM Chara has not yet responded
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-21-2002 6:41 AM Chara has not yet responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (27430)
12-19-2002 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
12-19-2002 12:18 AM


This part of Funky's post really made me think:

quote:
Considering the culture I think this is pretty honourable. The women are provided for, they are given time to grieve their loss and offered a new beggining. If things don't work out then she is free, cannot be sold or treated as a slave. Again we see that God wants to provide for the children and the widowed.

The part in bold really gets me. When god had his chosen slaughter their foes, which they did through deception when they circumcized the males leaving them defenseless, everyone was killed. Everyone that is except for the virgin females. Any woman who had known a man[/i] and infants were put to the sword. What children or widows are you referring to?

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 12-19-2002 12:18 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:49 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 65 (27433)
12-19-2002 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mr. Davies
12-19-2002 10:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
What children or widows are you referring to?

Yes, good point. Maybe what funk meant was that God wanted to provide for the young nubile virgins by giving them to his soldiers as presents?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 10:43 PM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 65 (27435)
12-19-2002 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 5:28 AM


quote:
(snip personal stuff)Here is a quick version of my take on the O.T. I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man.

And god knew this before man was even created. This god, who is supposed to be omnipotent or so I've been told, created an imperfect being, man, yet this god holds all of humanity to a high standard. Failure to adhere to the standards results in an eternity of torture. Sounds to me that this god set most, if not all, of humanity up for failure.

quote:
This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people.

So this god's chosen was not much better than their contemporaries. While they did not toss babies in pits of wild, starving dogs, ala some of the more barbaric peoples, neither did most societies of the time. So, what made god favor some of humanity over another? As a parent, I surely never even appear to favor one of my kids over the others. I don't want them to kill each other either. Also, when they want to know what the rules are, I don't scribble things in books, leave cryptic messages, or tell one kid one thing and their siblings something else, I go in and clarify it for all of them, gathering them all in one room if I need to do that. I know I'm just a mere mortal man, but I'll stack my parenting skills up against this god's any day and I'll come out on top.

quote:
Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them.

Why just them? There are many deserving people in the world, yet this god chosen kist one particular tribe to protect and lead them out from their enemies, no matter what their crime they committed against their contemporaries. I don't know of any human that does screw up at least once a day, but why god's chosen stayed chosen is just plain wrong. If that isn't playing favorites with your children, I don't know what would be.

quote:
The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to.(snip more get sleep stuff)

So this god's law is mutable? Your god allows even his chosen to behave like semi-barbarians because it was an earlier time? Seems to me there are many laws that say how to make sure you always keep your mind focused on not pissing of god, but the laws about people, stone them to death for many different infractions and kill your enemies, seems to be completely lacking.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-19-2002 5:28 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 65 (27464)
12-20-2002 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chara
12-19-2002 2:44 PM


Thanks Chara.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chara, posted 12-19-2002 2:44 PM Chara has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (27583)
12-21-2002 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chara
12-19-2002 2:44 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--



This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.

I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.

*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.

And does this make any sense.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chara, posted 12-19-2002 2:44 PM Chara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-27-2002 7:59 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-29-2002 2:37 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 65 (28003)
12-27-2002 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-21-2002 6:41 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--



This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.

I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.

*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.

And does this make any sense.


I'd like for this topic to continue, as it is something I can actually discuss.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-21-2002 6:41 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by John, posted 12-29-2002 9:09 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
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