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Author Topic:   soul of fundamentalism
working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 1 of 135 (189373)
02-28-2005 11:33 PM


quote:
I think religious fundamentalists aren't bad.
There is an essential flaw in all beliefs relating to man and not God (these are all other fundamentalists), in that they are trivial.

I respect those that honor their God and their religion by believing and accepting in knowledge of opposing evidence and lacking any evidence for their religious beliefs. They are the Last Samurai of this world and should be respected for their faith.

That there are misrepresentations to every religion, you should not judge the Muslim fundamentalists by the violent ones, although they may have every right to be violent, and you should not judge the christian fundamentalists by the ignorant, propaganda preaching ones, the television evangelists and whoever else that shines a negative light on truly beautiful faith.

I am a christian fundamentalist to show a symbol that I have faith in God and I identify with a beautiful piece of literature more than scientific evidence.


This is a reply to jar on fundamentalism. So I'd like to hear from you all, hear why, if you do, feel fundamentalism is fundamentally evil/wrong?

I see truth, beauty, sacrifice, faith, love and great emotion in fundamentalism. I feel people have been generalizing from the misrepresentations.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-01-2005 12:09 AM working out eating chips has responded
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 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2005 5:39 AM working out eating chips has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1911
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 135 (189376)
03-01-2005 12:00 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 135 (189378)
03-01-2005 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
02-28-2005 11:33 PM


Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
porcelain writes:

I'd like to hear from you all, hear why, if you do, feel fundamentalism is fundamentally evil/wrong?


The very term "fundamentalist" has been synonomous with negative connotations. In Orthodox Judaism, for example, no work of any kind is permitted on the Sabbath. What of the Pharisees, however?
Remember Jesus dialogue with them?
NIV writes:

Matt 12:9-12-going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."


It was fundamentally wrong to heal on the Sabbath yet according to Christ Himself, it was practically correct.

This is the crux of my answer...Fundamentals of belief are only good if they include real life situations and decisions made from the heart rather than from a list of rules.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by working out eating chips, posted 02-28-2005 11:33 PM working out eating chips has responded

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 135 (189394)
03-01-2005 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
02-28-2005 11:33 PM


I'm not opposed to fundies so long as they are content to just be fundies, but when they work to deny civil rights protections to people I have a problem. Fundies have a history of fighting legal protections for vulnerable people. From protecting old ladies from prosecution as witches, to protecting people from church-sanctioned torture, to protecting small children from virtual slavery in factories, to ending slavery, to ending segregation, to ending any and all forms of bigotry, fundies are always there to fight change. They always claim to have God on their side. These are the same people who claim that every word of the bible is literal truth. They are therefore at least somewhat inured to such things as rape, incest and genocide, since all are either sanctioned or practiced by the god of their bible.

Many of them are good people who would do anything for you if you were in need (and indeed there are many fundies I myself care for deeply; I live in the Deep South after all), but I will always speak out against them and oppose them politically.

chris porcelain writes:

quote:
I am a christian fundamentalist to show a symbol that I have faith in God and I identify with a beautiful piece of literature more than scientific evidence.

Then you should drop all pretense of intellectual discussion. You are interested only in emotion and romance. You have nothing to offer to anyone who is more intersted in facts and reason, and neither would a person interested in facts and reason have anything of value for you.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by working out eating chips, posted 02-28-2005 11:33 PM working out eating chips has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 5 of 135 (189396)
03-01-2005 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
03-01-2005 2:22 AM


berberry writes:

Fundies have a history of fighting legal protections for vulnerable people.

True and ironic. A fundamentalist by definition adheres strictly to the word of their faith. Jesus declared, in effect, that His kingdom was NOT of this world. He never taught His disciples how to protest Roman oppression. Caesar could have his government....the kingdom of love was within the believer. Thus, technically, a fundamentalist should stay out of politics, IMHO.
This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 6 of 135 (189405)
03-01-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
03-01-2005 2:22 AM


From protecting old ladies from prosecution as witches, to protecting people from church-sanctioned torture, to protecting small children from virtual slavery in factories, to ending slavery, to ending segregation, to ending any and all forms of bigotry, fundies are always there to fight change.

Actually there were fundies on both sides of all of these issues. Indeed slavery-abolitionists within the US were extremely fundamentalist. And I am uncertain how people like Rev. Martin Luther King, Rev. Jesse Jackson, and Malcolm X could be considered anything less than fundemantalist and yet against bigotry.

I will always speak out against them and oppose them politically.

Until such time as they support one of your own political enemies of course.

Then you should drop all pretense of intellectual discussion. You are interested only in emotion and romance. You have nothing to offer to anyone who is more intersted in facts and reason, and neither would a person interested in facts and reason have anything of value for you.

PCKB. Sadly, PCKB.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 135 (189406)
03-01-2005 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by working out eating chips
02-28-2005 11:33 PM


So I'd like to hear from you all, hear why, if you do, feel fundamentalism is fundamentally evil/wrong?

Fundamentalism is too broad a term, or ill-defined, to call evil/wrong. Your reply to Jar (ironically asking to deny the violent as fundamentalist, yet analogizing them to samurai) tends a bit to the true scotsman fallacy.

Perhaps you would be better off defining what is fundamentalism, in a general way, and then adding terms to it to identify types of fundamentalists. For example Xian Pacifist Fundamentalist, or Jewish Militant Fundamentalist.

I think it become easier to talk about specific types of fundamentalism, rather than it as a whole.

Personally I have a problem with anyone who decides that their religion is so special, that everyone else must believe it too. That is evangelical-type fundamentalism. It is made worse when militancy is added, and sometimes militancy alone is bad news when added to religion (though cases like abolitionists show it can be positive sometimes).

I identify with a beautiful piece of literature more than scientific evidence.

This is problematic for me. I agree that everyone can and should identify with literature more than scientific evidence.

Literature is a description of experience, that is evidence viewed through a filter of emotions and a priori beliefs. Science is supposed to be cold hard factual understanding of what is.

I am saddened when people are so attached to their a priori beliefs, or emotional filters that they reject scientific evidence in order to cling to their literature as if it were objective study of fact.

I think that is one of the beginning steps toward serious error. It appears that fundamentalists are more prone to this mistake than others, but evidence from my stay here at EvC is that evos can and do make the same type of mistakes, despite vocal allegience to science.

This raises the question to my mind which then is more seriously a problem: the religious fundamentalist who admittedly rejects science to embrace an ideal, or the emotional fundamentalist who pretends absolute adherence to science while embracing an ideal.

As far as intellectual error goes, I find the second camp "worse", and so more distasteful. Add militancy to it, or the need to push their own political agenda against others, and they are twice as bad as a religious fundamentalist. While they may do the same damage, they are able to create the illusion they do not have a chink in their armor and so dismiss criticism with a greater air of authority. At the very least, most religious fundamentalists admit they have a chink, and point out what it is.

I keep forgetting what your position is on science, but I would hope that despite your love of a certain piece of literature, you can at least admit what a certain methodology of studying the world (which is what science is) actually has as its best current model.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by working out eating chips, posted 02-28-2005 11:33 PM working out eating chips has responded

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 135 (189456)
03-01-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
03-01-2005 5:16 AM


holmes insults me:

quote:
PCKB.

Yes, I know, because I'm not worried about one of the wealthiest men in the world and whether or not he'll be able to buy a fair trial. That's off-topic in this thread, holmes. Just because no one paid much attention to your thread is no reason for you to try to drag this one away from it's OP.

quote:
And I am uncertain how people like Rev. Martin Luther King, Rev. Jesse Jackson, and Malcolm X could be considered anything less than fundemantalist and yet against bigotry.

I can't imagine that anyone is stupid enough to be confused about the type of fundie I'm talking about, but since you apparently are let me make myself clear: I'm speaking specifically about those fundies who believe every word of the bible is true and who believe they have a duty to see to it that any group of people they don't like is denied civil rights and legal protections.

Besides, I'm unaware that any of those men ever professed a belief that every word of the bible is literal truth. Even if they did, it must have led them to different conclusions because they don't fit my definition of 'fundie'.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 9 of 135 (189717)
03-02-2005 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Thugpreacha
03-01-2005 12:09 AM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
They had to look for a reason to try to villify Christ and I don't think it was a literal believer would disagree with what Jesus said.

How could the pharisees be true fundamentalists? They let merchants and business man desecrate the temple. Jesus said they locked away the truth and let noone see it and they didn't see it themselves. They were worldly, loved power, money, they were corrupt. I think they were one of the greatest misrepresentations you could point out. I think the symbol of who Moses was is a good example, Abraham, Noah, Isaiah, Solomon. Oh yeah and Job.

I think the point is to look at fundamentalism from the intentions, the views, the beliefs, to take the good in with the bad. I believe that fundamentalism isn't evil, I believe it's the people that have misrepresented it, called themselves by it and truly echoed a perception of ignorance and hate to many, many people. And I believe this perception is the one held by most of us here.

There are men in love that live holy lives, they are wise and kind people that could teach you virtues and be an example to live by, but this men of God are overshadowed.


-one word to describe me, spectacular yes
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 10 of 135 (189721)
03-02-2005 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
03-01-2005 5:39 AM


I know where the evidence is. I know that everything points to a creation contrary to a more traditional creation myth, and I am fine with that. Honestly, it doesn't faze me. I have a deep respect for sciences. I know the philosophy, the theology, yet I'm no expert on the sciences. I think you can see truth in me of forming beliefs of sound philosophy and logic and being affected by the Jesus, the Budda, others, knowing human nature and understanding and respecting a person that bases their existence on the scientific evidence, yet I cannot do that, so the basis of my belief is on something illogical.

I don't ignore the evidence. I embrace it. I understand my perception is by definition ignorant and tragic, but I feel to accept God, you sometimes stray from human reasoning and become shunned by your peers.

I portrayed fundamentalism as the last samuria not at all to do with violence, I didn't see violence. I see a dying breed, of a people with ideals that are obsolete but they believe them. And they don't think a second of it. I have been tested here to truly hone the truth. To try and hold this intangible force that can only be described through life and your own personal experience. It has no place in a textbook and I feel many here deny this experience. They rely on the evidence. Yet they can't live the what would seem to be the observable. I can't deny something spiritual and magnificent and the evidence can't either.

When I say fundamentalist I mean someone who believes something and doesn't question it, has faith in it and is unwaivered in belief, and actually sees it, grasps it, controls it, is the essence of beauty, peace, love and faith, of life. I think fundamentalism is so widely denounced because it can not be understood by one without faith. I've had discussions that were fruitless because of this. This belief I have come to discover cannot be taught. It comes in life, full of persecution andcoming from something new something of no faith that must question to something that is old and simple. You can't convert this. I have discovered that the only true missionary is God.

People can aide you to discover this but it is something that must be found in, of that individual.


-one word to describe me, spectacular yes
This message is a reply to:
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 11 of 135 (189723)
03-02-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
03-01-2005 2:22 AM


I disagree, I have come to this belief only through reason, I have found God through this method. I believe there is more to offer than evidence. I have come to believe that maybe my beliefs are only illogical to you and that my convictions are logic.
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 Message 4 by berberry, posted 03-01-2005 2:22 AM berberry has responded

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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 12 of 135 (189726)
03-02-2005 11:18 PM


I have not just seen things from this view. I have spent some time at christianity forums and my belief is strong. I have seen the misuse, the hate, the futile, the destruction, the unholy. And I have come back the same.
  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 135 (189728)
03-03-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by working out eating chips
03-02-2005 11:14 PM


Then please explain the reasoning process by which you reach the conclusion that an ancient piece of literature is more reliable than scientific evidence.

I don't want to pick on you too harshly, chris, since I believe you said somewhere that you wouldn't support a ban on gay marriage. That shows that at least you are willing to follow God in your own life without trying to impose your beliefs on others. I think that's highly commendable and I would thus never call you a bigot, but I'm still curious as to how you reach the conclusion that literature is more reliable than evidence.


Keep America Safe AND Free!
This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 135 (189736)
03-03-2005 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by working out eating chips
03-02-2005 10:37 PM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
Porcelain writes:

I think the point is to look at fundamentalism from the intentions, the views, the beliefs, to take the good in with the bad. I believe that fundamentalism isn't evil, I believe it's the people that have misrepresented it, called themselves by it and truly echoed a perception of ignorance and hate to many, many people.

OK, Chris...lets look at four definitions:
fun•da•men•tal•ism \-'i-z€m\ n, 1 often cap : a Protestant religious movement emphasizing the literal infallibility of the Bible 2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict adherence to a set of basic principles — fun•da•men•tal•ist \-ist\ adj or n

phar•i•see \"far-€-'sÈ\ n 1 cap : a member of an ancient Jewish sect noted for strict observance of rites and ceremonies of the traditional law 2 : a self-righteous or hypocritical person — phar•i•sa•ic \'far-€-"sÀ-ik\ adj

zeal•ot \"ze-l€t\ n : a zealous person; esp : a fanatical partisan syn enthusiast, bigot

le•gal•ism \"lÈ-g€-'li-z€m\ n 1 : strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code 2 : a legal term — le•gal•is•tic \'lÈ-g€-"lis-tik\ adj

I won't attempt to define what a fundamentalist is, but I would think that strict interpretation of the fundamentals is what the Pharisees were guilty of...they honestly thought they were the real deal until Jesus burst their bubble.

The reason that I bring this up is because I feel that you will be anything but a strict fundamentalist as you grow up. You may end up like Goldmund...the antithesis of a fundamentalist like Narcissus. (Or kinda like Jar!) You will, however, find that the love of Christ is real and is not based on a set of rules but on a heart that is committed. God truly loves us despite ourselves rather than because of our good intentions.

Three words to describe you: Spectacular, yes..inquisitive, yes...controversial?..hmmm maybe! :)

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-03-2005 00:56 AM

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-03-2005 00:59 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by working out eating chips, posted 03-02-2005 10:37 PM working out eating chips has responded

Replies to this message:
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1702 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 15 of 135 (189740)
03-03-2005 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Thugpreacha
03-03-2005 2:46 AM


Re: Were the Pharisees fundamentalists?
The Pharisees were guilty of being ignorant and corrupt. Not because they were strict followers of Judaism. Some were even politicians.

No, how do you believe in a God with no faith?


This message is a reply to:
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