The power of prayers vs. The Divine plan

Hi,I'm new to this site so allow me to say good day to all.I would like to start off by challenging the purpose of prayers:Prayers. Do prayers work? I was given the impression that praying is synonymous to conversing or communicating with a higher being that most people call God or gods. I was also given the impression that through this communication, we are supposed to express the hardships and problems that we face, and give thanks for the graces or good events that happened to us.
Such hardships may include everything that pisses us off, including (but not exclusively) death of spouse/friends, loss of valued possessions, communication problems with loved ones (or others), conflicts (both internal and external), etc.Such graces include (again, not exclusively) the fact that we are alive, that we are in a relatively advantageous social class, that we are relatively more fortunate than others, that we are STILL alive, etc.It was also in my impression (though I could very well be wrong) that prayers (supposedly) can somehow change the course of real, physical events. That is, they are answered: that our requests for more luck in our existence does sometimes, somehow, materialise as a direct consequence of our interaction with this higher being(s).I question the validity of this last point from a logical perspective. What follows are two assumptions made to reach the contradiction:1. God(s) possess the ability to (and indeed, did) create the universe from nothingness, and also the ability to change anything in this world. (Omnipotent)2. God(s) possess absolute knowledge of the past, present, and future. (Omniscience)Given the above assumptions, one can only conclude that God(s) not only created the world, but has predetermined everything that has/is/will happen to it. The key word is PREDETERMINED. This means that from the point of Creation, a divine plan must have been laid out by God(s) which must in turn dictate everything that has/is/will happen in the world until its (supposed) eventual destruction. Omniscience also dictates that regardless of what decisions we make, God(s) already knew them prior to even our own existence.Given the above reasoning, one may deduce that God(s) therefore must know what we will face in each day of our lives until the day we die, as well as what our every prayers will entail prior to even Creation! In other words, the prayers we give/provide (I don’t know the proper word to convey this) to God must be, all things accounted for, a pointless venture.As a pre-emptive attempt to answer this post with the concept of freewill, let me just say that the very nature of a devine plan eliminates any and all possibility that their was/is ever free will. Either that, or we all have free will and God(s) do not exist.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.Welcome to EvC SleepingDragon.This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 05-14-2004 02:22 PM

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

" As a pre-emptive attempt to answer this post with the concept of freewill, let me just say that the very nature of a devine plan eliminates any and all possibility that their was/is ever free will. Either that, or we all have free will and God(s) do not exist. "
_______________________________What has 1 and 2 got to do with this opinion though?Just because God posesses the ability to change anything, and see what has, is, and will happen, bares no logical relevance to free will.God could know that I'm about to kick the football, yet not intervene. He good very well know the outcome of the kick and still let us have the choice. He could manipulate the ball to go into the goal - and we would still have a choice of whether to kick it or not.

quote:

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God could know that I'm about to kick the football, yet not intervene. He good very well know the outcome of the kick and still let us have the choice. He could manipulate the ball to go into the goal - and we would still have a choice of whether to kick it or not.

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Reminds me of a special on Religion in Pro Sports. One player talked about how a kick in the waning seconds of a game bounced off of the goalpost and out. His team won by 2 points (American football). Some of the christian members on the team asked him "We prayed for a win. Do you believe in the power of prayer now?" To which he answered, "What? Are you telling me that the players on the other team didn't pray enough?" I think the lesson is pretty obvious. Humans always seem to see fulfilled prayers as being "hits" while ignoring the times that prayers go unanswered.

But look at this: How does a divine plan eliminate free will?My analogy was made to show how we can still have free will whether God gets involved or not. He says if we have free will then God doesn't exist. But I have shown that free will and God can exist with the analogy - therefore his premise may not be faulty, but his indications most definately are. It is a major assumption to conclude that free will = No God. The bible says that free will is intact, along with God. Christ laid down his life of free will. The decision to believe in him is free will. Jonah had free will, yet God coaxed him back to the correct path. Indeed, free will does not mean no God, not according to the bible anyway.Now also, Abraham was told to slay Izaac, and he chose to do it as God commanded, yet God stopped him from doing it. God wanted Abraham to make a choice, he wanted to see if Abraham had faith through free will.

Omniscience can work with the idea of free will. It is a possibility that God knows what choices we will freely make. There is a difference between the idea that God commands the outcome and the idea that God simply knows it. For example, I know that when it is cloudy, the barometer drops, and my arthritic knees act up, that it is going to rain. Knowing that it is going to rain doesn’t mean that I made it rain.Even with the concept of a God who takes an active hand in the Universe, there is a difference between controlling the outcome of every given situation, and simply introducing new stimuli. There are prophesies of future events in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean anything more than God is introducing a new stimulus into the universe, and it could also simply mean that God knows what the results of our choices will bring.There is also the fact that you start with the assumption that God is omniscient, and thus there is no free will. This is fine, but there are those who start with the assumption that there is free will, and thus God is not omniscient (at least as far as it pertains to knowledge of the future). Or perhaps because He granted us free will, he has no divine plan for us. It really just depends on which assumption you want to start with.

I think your first two paragraphs are correct. You said though, that; What about the assumption that free will = God. Afterall, why can't I assume that?

If you have an omniscient god who is also the "creator" of life, then free will is simply an illusion. If god knows what your choice will be before he allows you to be born, then there is no true choice. You were born to do exactly what god knows you are going to do.If god, the creator, does not know what your choice will be then he isn't omniscient. If he is omniscient then freewill can not exist.Freewill and an omniscient, omnipotent, creator of life are mutually exclusive.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

I KNEW you were gonna say that. But then obviously, you knew I was gong to say that, but I knew you'd say that too.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Go away little boy...you and the horse you rode in on....

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

Did you miss this part though?" I know that when it is cloudy, the barometer drops, and my arthritic knees act up, that it is going to rain. Knowing that it is going to rain doesn’t mean that I made it rain. "In the same way, God knowing that I am going to hit the football doesn't mean he is making me hit it. Omniscience/omnipotence of God does NOT mean there is no real "freewill". Abraham still had to use free will as to whether to have faith or doubt.

Nah-Nah-Nah.If there is no free will is it possible to believe that there is free will?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I will accept your reply depending on the answers you give to these questions.1. Is god omniscient?2. Is god omnipotent?3. Is god the only one who can create life?

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

Surely he is all-powerful, yet his choices to use power may not agree with what your choices would be. If you were an admin at this site, and you had full power - why haven't you made the choices I would have made? Obviously you mustn't be an admin right?I guess God is all knowing - guess!Creating life? I am not sure on that one.

jar If God has a plan is it possible to believe that God has no plan?