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Author Topic:   are christian wives respected?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 65 (31859)
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


Since the thread in which I asked this question was closed, I am starting a new thread.
It was finally explained to me by TB that while he could take advice from his wife if he wanted to, he didn't have to, and he was never directed by her. Likewise, she must always follow his direction, and always take his advice.
My next question was if he respects her as a person.
The larger question is, is it possible to truly respect a person if you ulimately can control them?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-10-2003 2:54 PM nator has replied
 Message 3 by Satcomm, posted 02-10-2003 3:00 PM nator has not replied
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 02-10-2003 10:18 PM nator has not replied
 Message 10 by Satcomm, posted 02-11-2003 1:56 PM nator has not replied
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 65 (31893)
02-10-2003 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


First off I quite often take my wifes advice, and guidance, but I am still accountable for the results of the decision.
Yes I respect my wife, no I don't control her. I am merely accountable for the decisions that get made. I love and respect my wife.
Ephesians 5:21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
and
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 02-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 02-10-2003 9:44 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 02-11-2003 8:20 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 65 (31894)
02-10-2003 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


Two identical threads and two identical responses? Is this another glitch, Admin?
EDIT: NM, looks like it got fixed. It was either A) My computer/network here at work, or B) glitch fixed by the admin.
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?
[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 02-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 65 (31911)
02-10-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


I take Funk's viewpoint on the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 02-10-2003 9:44 AM nator has not replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 65 (31930)
02-11-2003 5:01 AM


My wife and I are equal.
I do not read instructions given to a Christian congregation in one time, place and culture as inherently appropriate in a different setting.

  
Zephan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 65 (31934)
02-11-2003 6:48 AM


I think Schraffy is really a Butch waiting for a mid-life crisis.

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Admin, posted 02-11-2003 1:40 PM Zephan has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 7 of 65 (31938)
02-11-2003 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
02-10-2003 2:54 PM


quote:
First off I quite often take my wifes advice, and guidance, but I am still accountable for the results of the decision.
But does she HAVE to take your advice and guidence, while you can CHOOSE to take hers or not?
quote:
Yes I respect my wife, no I don't control her. I am merely accountable for the decisions that get made. I love and respect my wife.
But you have said that when you have a disagreement about some action to take, you and god get together and decide what to do, and she will abide by your descision.
That, by definition, means that, even if it's in a small way, you can tell her what to do and she must simply do it. This is what you have explained to me as her role as a good Christian wife, unless you are changing things now.
To me, this is not really true respect. Unless she can ALWAYS have the option to say "no" and make it stick if she feels the need to, unless there is never a time when one of you can simply overrule the other, true mutual respect is not possible. Not adult mutual respect, anyway.
quote:
Ephesians 5:21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
and
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Peter 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands
Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 02-10-2003 2:54 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by Satcomm, posted 02-11-2003 6:06 PM nator has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 9 of 65 (31958)
02-11-2003 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Zephan
02-11-2003 6:48 AM


Hi Zephan!
This is from your last post in this thread:
Zephan writes:
I think Schraffy is really a Butch waiting for a mid-life crisis.
This is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."
The purpose of the guidelines is to keep discussion focused on issues rather than personalities.
------------------
--EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Zephan, posted 02-11-2003 6:48 AM Zephan has not replied

  
Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (31959)
02-11-2003 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


Preface: I agree with TB, in that, I side with Funk on the matter. (You're probably thinking 'yeah those Christians stick together'.) My wife and I have a Christian marriage and we have a very healthy relationship. None of your (schraf) complaints are valid or applicable in our situation. I know you have statistics of the Southern Baptists or whatever, but it totally has nothing to do with our marriage.
With that said, I'll reply to your thread:
quote:
It was finally explained to me by TB that while he could take advice from his wife if he wanted to, he didn't have to, and he was never directed by her. Likewise, she must always follow his direction, and always take his advice.
You don't seem to understand what 'out of reverence for Christ' means to two people who believe, so you will probably not understand this type of relationship. Also, it's really not your business, is it? Live your marriage however you want. We're not telling you what to do.
quote:
My next question was if he respects her as a person.
I can't speak for Funk's wife, however I can speak for my own. She does respect me as a person as I respect her as a person. Oh, I'm probably annoying at times, but then-again, I'm a guy and a geek.
quote:
The larger question is, is it possible to truly respect a person if you ulimately can control them?
This is an incorrect question. It is not about control. You completely misunderstand the situation. So, my question for you is: Is it possible to love and trust someone so much that you just want to submit to them and do the right things to have a healthy family? This question goes both ways.
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

This message is a reply to:
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jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 65 (31960)
02-11-2003 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-10-2003 9:44 AM


quote:
It was finally explained to me by TB that while he could take advice from his wife if he wanted to, he didn't have to, and he was never directed by her. Likewise, she must always follow his direction, and always take his advice.
First, no one HAS to do anything but die. His wife CHOOSES to play this role. Do you understand this? I hope so.
Second, why are you insisting on this thread? It is obvious you are not hoping to learn anything new but to prove wrong the beliefs of christians by utilizing ill formed fact and opinion. It is tiresome.
quote:
My next question was if he respects her as a person.
Respect and control are seperate. I'll put it in hypothetical terms for you. I am a deli manager at a local grocery store. Pedro, who works under me, is quite knowledgeable on cheese. I ask him his opinion before purchasing some brie. Why did I ask him? Because I respect his opinion. I still make the final choice regardless of what he has instructed me to buy. Respect has nothing to do with control. Stop picking a freaking fight over it.
quote:
The larger question is, is it possible to truly respect a person if you ulimately can control them?
In your eyes? No. In real life, yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 02-10-2003 9:44 AM nator has not replied

  
jdean33442
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 65 (31961)
02-11-2003 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
02-11-2003 8:20 AM


quote:
But does she HAVE to take your advice and guidence, while you can CHOOSE to take hers or not?
Yeah, she HAS to do anything and everything he says. Otherwise a good ole fashioned wife beating will ensue. What exactly are you implying by stating his wife HAS to take his advice. What do you think happens when his wife disagrees. I bet there is a big arguement and she ends up getting her way. Just a hunch though.
quote:
But you have said that when you have a disagreement about some action to take, you and god get together and decide what to do, and she will abide by your descision.
I highly doubt he is high fiving Jesus and having a freaking roundtable over whether he and his wife should attend the Michaelson party next week. Come on. He consults the teachings of Christ and his belief for answers. His wife always believes in the teachings of Christ. So I guess they both agree then don't they?
quote:
That, by definition, means that, even if it's in a small way, you can tell her what to do and she must simply do it. This is what you have explained to me as her role as a good Christian wife, unless you are changing things now.
Your definition is murky. What is YOUR definition anways? Perhaps the believers of the forum would like to criticize it.
quote:
To me, this is not really true respect. Unless she can ALWAYS have the option to say "no" and make it stick if she feels the need to, unless there is never a time when one of you can simply overrule the other, true mutual respect is not possible. Not adult mutual respect, anyway.
Of course his wife has the option to say NO (or YES for the matter). Every one does. Do you understant this yet?
Lovely scripture you quoted, however, the woman has CHOSEN the role of subservience. Matter of fact, the entire Christian belief is based on subservience to Christ. They are emulating Christ as instructed.
Don't get yourself into this type of relationship if you disagree. Others can make their own choices.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 65 (31966)
02-11-2003 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jdean33442
02-11-2003 2:36 PM


Some good points have been made by others here on this issue. For one the fact that my wife doesn't have to do anything. Rather chooses to do out of reverence for Christ.
This is something we discussed and agreed on before we got married, something she feels comfortable with because she trusts me.
You made a comment about God and I consulting and making all the decisions. This is simply not the case, this is the importance of praying together.
As much as you don't see it Schraff it is submission to each other and ultimately to God.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Satcomm
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (31978)
02-11-2003 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
02-11-2003 8:20 AM


quote:
But does she HAVE to take your advice and guidence,
No, she does not HAVE to take it. She CHOOSES whether or not to take it out of love, trust, and faith.
quote:
while you can CHOOSE to take hers or not?
Sure. Both parties have free will.
quote:
But you have said that when you have a disagreement about some action to take, you and god get together and decide what to do, and she will abide by your descision.
That, by definition, means that, even if it's in a small way, you can tell her what to do and she must simply do it. This is what you have explained to me as her role as a good Christian wife, unless you are changing things now.
You have indicated in the past that you do not think God exists. Therefore you do not understand the actions of two people who do believe that God exists.
quote:
To me, this is not really true respect. Unless she can ALWAYS have the option to say "no" and make it stick if she feels the need to, unless there is never a time when one of you can simply overrule the other, true mutual respect is not possible. Not adult mutual respect, anyway.
She does have the option to say "no". What do you consider "adult mutual respect"?
quote:
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
This is from different dispensation. It was reclarified and added to by the New Testament.
quote:
Peter 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands
Lovely, however you conveniently left out verse 7:
(KJV) Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
(NLT) In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.
quote:
Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Again, you left out the rest of that passage. Verses 13-15 state:
(KJV) 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(NLT) 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.
So this is decreeing that women will find their joy through the role of a strong family. This is unpopular in modern culture, but popular to those who believe. If the woman agrees to this arrangement, then there isn't an issue of oppression, but it is a matter of love for her family.
quote:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
That passage is an instruction for a spirit-guided marriage. Notice the term "spirit-guided", as in those who believe in and embrace the spirit. It doesn't really have any practical application for those who are living in a worldly marriage. Verse 21 of that chapter says "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ". If a couple has no reverence for Christ, then this passage is meaningless to them.
------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nator, posted 02-11-2003 8:20 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 02-11-2003 9:45 PM Satcomm has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 65 (31991)
02-11-2003 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Satcomm
02-11-2003 6:06 PM


I will make this a kind of uber-reply to satcomm, TB and freaky.
I want you all to know that I am actually trying to understand you all. This is such a foreign notion to me because my marriage has always been a leaderless one. My husband and I are a great partnership and we solve problems together as a team. We have no need for leadership.
But what I still haven't had answered, and what is the ultimate crux of my confusion, is this question:
How can you both submit to each other in the marriage, yet at the very same time there exists a leader (always the man), and therefore, a follower(always the woman)?
If you tell me that you share the burden of descision making and that you are equals, which is actually mostly what you have been sounding like in your rather liberal interpretation of every plain-sounding Bible passage that I provide, then it seems that your "leadership" role is pretty much honerary, like the Queen of England.
If it is true that you submit to each other, then who is doing the leading when the leader is submitting, if there is only one leader?
If you submit to each other, except when the leader leads, then you aren't really submitting to each other.
This is because when the male leader submits or leads (I contend that it is impossible to do both at the same time, but I am waiting for clarification on this), he gets to choose when he does one or the other. The follower is never supposed to lead, so never has the choice to do so. She must always submit if she is to never lead.
Maybe my logic is faulty, but I don't think so.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Zephan
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 65 (32024)
02-12-2003 7:40 AM


Schrafinator,
You're comical. Not you personally, but your reasoning. I fear you will never escape.
Anyway, I would show you but it would only incite you to anger and therefore blind you even more. After all, you might object to being "led" to the light.
I will say, however, that my previous "Butch" comment was out of line and for that I apologize. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Replies to this message:
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