Person in revealed religion vs as understood by brain science

I'd like some help with getting a concisely formulated question out of the following.I'm rereading Antonio Damasio's book DESCARTES' ERROR. I'm on the beginning of the book about Phineas Gage's famous brain injury resulting from a steel tamping bar being flung through his skull and destroying a large amount of his frontal cortex resulting in a major personality change from an ambitious conscientious young man to a combative and impulsive individual who was ill equipped to deal with life.My perception of revealed religion particularly of the traditional or fundamentalist type is that it relies on a traditional appearance of what a person is along with notions of free will.I would like to hear from those of that persuassion how they regard individuals who change personality or function due to major brain injury and how this fits with there notions of salvation and free will.I hold that science is invalidating most or all of the presuppostions that underlie the traditional thinking that allows revealed religion to claim to make sense. And as more and more is learned about how the brain functions revealed religions will have to examine their fundamental assumptions of who it is that is relating to god and salvation.Is anyone else interested in this? Thanks.peace,
lfenThis message has been edited by lfen, 08-01-2004 05:11 PM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I'm definitely interested in this, in fact I think it has similar themes to the free will vs. determinism thread.The only just late Francis Crick's later work on the neuronal correlates of consciousness are also suggestive that there is an organic basis for what we think of as 'I'.Unfortunately I can't comment on these topics as a religious traditional or fundamentalist.TTFN,WK

WK,Thanks for your interest. I don't know if I'll get any literalist contributors actually. I think this is an area few have examined. I don't mean to exclude any input so please contribute.I am working now with the idea of paradigns. The creationists etc. think in terms of a pre scientific paradign, not sure the best label for that. To follow a discussion between people who use a prescientific paradign vs a discussion between those who use the scientific paradign is to observe very different processes.While searching on Buddhism I found a fundamentalist Christian site whose author stated catagorical that all other religions were created by Satan, and that Buddhism and Hinduism open people to demon possession.Now scientists have found quarks, black holes, weak forces, DNA, but nary a demon to be found. I've begun to muse that the concept of a Meme might be a scientific analogue of demon. Some one gets an idea that you disapprove of. Well, could be they are possessed by a demon, though what ever that may be beyond an idea I couldn't tell you. Might it be possible to say in the scientific paradign that they picked up a problem causing meme?Religion is so chock full of imaginative elements that believers want to be true. It's the story telling stage that makes meaning from plot and character. And it can be useful, instructive, entertaining, and beautiful but I see it as something humans create in their imaginations and participate in together.Since character can change as a result of brain trauma it seems our brains and personality depend on our brain function.I've got to check out Crick's work. I highly recommend Damasio as being enjoyable and thought provoking to read, the best sort of popular science in that he covers the meaningful areas without talking down but without using professional terminology and dense writing styles.peace,
lfen

If you didn't already know check out Francisco Varela as well...

Ringo,I hadn't known. Thanks for the tip!lfen

made a mistake and double posted the preceding post. I don't know if I can delete this.lfenThis message has been edited by lfen, 08-03-2004 12:57 PMThis message has been edited by lfen, 08-03-2004 12:58 PM

This link isn't related to brain damage but it flows along with the topic.BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon - God on the BrainHow does an individual that is prone to such hallucinations affect others around them? In religious gatherings, would this individual promote reinforcement of belief for others?Just Wondering
PM1K

PM1K,Fascinating article. I think Dostoyevsky had temporal lobe seizures.
I'm wording if this might be an experience some prophets have? Paul's experience on the road to Damascus?lfen

It doesn't explain Paul's blindness that lasted precisely up to the moment the man who was told by God to meet and heal him.It is an interesting article, but I do not think it explains my friend Micah's experiences, the first of which involved three people in one one room.The neutral person only saw the mentally unstable girl while Micah saw the mentally unstable girl AND the demon the girl was speaking about. It's odd for two people to have the exact same hallucination don't you think? It's also odd that when Micah saw the demon enter the girl, the other observer in the room saw the girl have a personality change. Micah was also able to know by sight Christians from non-Christians. This insight was verified by his subsequent conversations with them.

I just watched the last half of Regarding Henry, and it made me think a little more about this.I think man is born dichotomous: he has a body and a soul. When he believes in Christ he recieves a human spirit becoming trichotomous. Adam, Eve, and Christ were the only one's created trichotomous.The soul is sort of like our baggage that we carry with us even after death. The human spirit is the immortal eternal essence created by God for us. At present the spirit resides in the body, but "groans to be free". Our bodies like everything else are subject to the bondage of decay. They are weak. Paul communicates his frustration with his sinful body in Romans chapter seven:We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do... I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing...So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!Though most human beings are capable of making choices, we are all subject to influences. We are all influenced by all sorts of things: those around us, ideologies, sin nature, good, evil, AS WELL AS our physical bodies including a person's brain chemistry. A person's brain chemistry may influence them towards something that another person's may not. A person may even have a total change in personality due to physical changes.We all reside in our physical bodies which are subject to change and decay, and influence our decisions; however, in MOST cases, this does not take away the ability to make decisions.In any case, when God judges our actions he "takes all things into account".

Hangdawg,The thread has taken an unexpected turn as threads are wont to do. I'm pleased to be learning new things but hallucinations weren't what got me going on this. I don't know much about them. I know there are various kinds of shared experiences like delusions.

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The neutral person only saw the mentally unstable girl while Micah saw the mentally unstable girl AND the demon the girl was speaking about. It's odd for two people to have the exact same hallucination don't you think? It's also odd that when Micah saw the demon enter the girl, the other observer in the room saw the girl have a personality change. Micah was also able to know by sight Christians from non-Christians. This insight was verified by his subsequent conversations with them.

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You mention the girl was speaking about the demon that Micah saw so there was some cueing going on. Mentally unstable in what way? Hysteric types will play up things and go along to get attention. Pyschotic types can have very strong effects on other people also.There just isn't enough information here for me to say much. I would suggest you might check what James Randi has to say about "cold readings". It is easy to fool ourselves in these matters. I won't rule out some special sensory modalities but I have to tell you that it would take an awful lot of heavy scientific proof before I would accept demons. I think mental illness and suggestiblity is far more likely.I was reading an account of an educated Indian who was devoted to Krishna. He would chant and pray long hours everyday. One evening he was thrilled when Krishna and Radha actually visited him. He did mention they were sort of transparent and that his wife couldn't see them. I don't think this was caused by mental unbalance or demons but was a culturally encouraged hallucination stemming from his intense devotion and a personality type that is prone to visions. I do believe visions/hallucinations are brain phenomena.Now studies are showing that up to half of the people who lose a loved one will have visions of them and the researchers regarded the people as normal. I think it's pretty clear that brains can produce visions, hallucinations of various sensory modalities, not just visual, but voices, and smells and sensations. Ah, that brings back when I about your age and in love. The girl wore a special scent that I identified with her. At work I used to hallucinate it. I'd be working away and then smell that scent and look around. Just a bunch of guys nothing there smelled remotely like her. I'm smiling as that is a nice memory and I had forgotten it until this discussion. I was crazy but then we all are during our teens. And as Paul Simon sings, I'm still crazy after all these years.My elderly grandfather who lived with us when I was a boy on rare occasions would come out of his bedroom angry about lizards or something he claimed the boys had in his room. My mother would take a look and then run and get the laxatives for him. I don't know why but that always took care of the animals in his room.I'm going to suggested, and I'm don't mean to pun here but your friend my be very suggestible. That is not a bad thing it just varies with people.peace,
lfen

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I just watched the last half of Regarding Henry, and it made me think a little more about this.

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Hi, Hangdawg,
I'm afraid I don't know Regarding Henry. It amuses me to tell people that "God killed my television and set me free". Well, my t.v. died and I love the peace and quiet I have now, it does feel like a blessing.

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I think man is born dichotomous: he has a body and a soul. When he believes in Christ he recieves a human spirit becoming trichotomous. Adam, Eve, and Christ were the only one's created trichotomous.

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You say something very interesting. He has a body, soul, and possibly a spirit. What is it, or who is it that has these things?Have you read anything of the teachings of the Buddha? or Shri Ramana Maharshi, or Bernadette Roberts? On this forum most posters, evo and creo, are looking out at the world, trying to make sense of the world they see. But I think the crux is with who/what seems to be looking out, with the knower moreso even than what is known. This is the focus of the eastern and contemplative approach. The examination of the most intimate mystery, the one so close we can't see it because it's the one doing the seeing. What is body, soul, spirit but more significantly who or what is it that is said to possess these objects? Who is the subject of all this experience?peace,
lfen