Can Death be "Very Good"?

Genesis 1:31 - And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.I have been in a discussion with some YEC friends of mine about the implication that death would have to exist prior to the creation of man for evolution to be true and since death cannot be "very good" it cannot have occurred.I thought about it for awhile and asked myself the quesiton, "Why can't death be very good?" I did a bit of surfing on the subject and noticed that some have come to the conclusion that the death we are saved from by Christ is spiritual death and not physical death. Once you seperate the two you can see that Adam may have recieved spiritual death rather than physical death for his transgression. Once I thought about this I read:Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever -- 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.Which seems to me like Adam had immortality to GAIN by eating from the tree of life. If Adam could become immortal, how then could his punishment be physical death? To me this seems like good biblical precedent for the mortality of God's creation before the fall of man.This issue of physical death before sin seems to be one of the largest issues between YECs and others because they cannot consider physical death to be "very good" as part of God's decree. Of course without death you cannot have selection and hence I know many smart Christians who refuse to open their minds to idea of evolution because of this way of thinking.My main question is therefore; Is there Biblical precedence to support/contradict that the physical death required for selection is/is not "very good"?

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-Nasser

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Jazzns I would contend that the fact that God kept the tree of life from Adam after he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to prevent him from immortality which he was allowed to eat up until then necessarily contradicts this stance does it not?

So because they could have eaten from the Tree of Life they were immortal? If that is the case then it seems still that God created them mortal and they had to become immortal be eating from the tree of life. Sure they ruined their chance to do it by the exodus but it still seems like they were simply mortal with the potential for immortality had they not fallen.

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-Nasser

I had a great idea last night after I started this thread!Genesis 1:28 - And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it ..."What need would there be for reproduction for immortal beings? Does this imply that Adam and Eve were not immortal?At least there is Biblical support for one element required for selection.

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-Nasser

I think the thrust of your question is a common sense one. Is it good to die? Well that all depends on your standing with the Big Guy, I guess. The Redeemer for our sins had not yet come to earth in the moments of creation, He was Creating. I do not think this is relevant to the YEC's point about evolution not flowing with the timeline that Genesis provides. You can't have people before animals, in evolution, etc. Right?-Justin

People are animals. So no, your statement doesn't make sense.I agree that the Genesis account does not match, even loosely, the evolutionary timeline.This is because the Genesis account was written by sheepherders making stuff up as they went along, and the evolutionary timeline is based on a mountain of evidence.

I just don't understand how you get from fossils of animals scattered througout geological strata to us, without taking on faith that we did in fact, evolve. I think I must be talking about "transitional" stuff. Why do we not have like...half-animals, if you know what I mean?Sure we have evidence that things change over time based on environment and mutation, but aren't we still just assuming that one slowly became one here, another there, etc, without evidence of the in-between, so to speak?I'm just confused. :b-JustinThis message has been edited by creationistal, 09-29-2004 02:13 PM

This is NOT the right thread to begin discussing either evolutionary evidence or dating. Please bring those up in the right places.I haven't suspended anyone for awhile. Keep that in mind.

Actually what I was going for is if physical death in and of itself is considered not "very good" by any Biblical standard and if Adam really was immortal upon creation. The reason is because one of the fundamental issues my friend has with evolution is that it requires the death of creatures before the fall of man. If man was already mortal upon creation then using the "unholiness" of the cycle of life and death as an argument against evolution is bunk. Was the physical death of man and animals a part of God's creation? If not, why does Adam seem to have immortality to gain by eating of the Tree of Life?Also: Depends on which sequence (Gen 1 vs Gen 2) you decide to go with. That is for another discussion though so lets not get into it.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. No one seemed interested in this thread at first so I stopped checking in on it. I would love to hear some more thoughts though especially with my latest post about reproduction.

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-Nasser

I think what folk have been trying to tell you is that there is not only no evidence that Adam was created immortal, Genesis tells us that he was NOT immortal.I have never been able to understand where the idea that pre-fall man way immortal came from.Genesis 3:22-24

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Right. That is what I think! In fact I posted those verses in the OP as part of my evidence as well. I am just trying to start a discussion about anyone who thinks that there IS biblical support for the pre-fall immortality of Adam. Some of the people I have had discussions with use the idea that physical death biblically could not have come before the fall as a line in the sand they cannot cross in regards to the EvC debate.I think maybe you thought I was arguing the opposite? Also, not many people have posted to this thread yet so I don't know where all the "folk who have been trying to tell me" are coming from.Thanks for agreeing with me though! Thats a start!

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-Nasser

Are you sure those people aren't you? Anyhow - I have heard of the "death" problem from YEC's. However - we "kill" animals daily to eat them for food - and God sees animal death as an acceptable sacrifice, in the OT. So do realise that YEC's think their roast dinners are "very good" - especially with a bit of mint sauce.You see - the bible isn't a scientific record of how life came about. Now "Death" of animals is nature, and reality. We only care if the animals die if they are our pets and we have an emotional tie - otherwise - we're happy to scoff them down with fries on the side.Now yes - it seems cruel and "not good" but we have to realise that animals are part of a system - they are not super-intelligent beings - and they were not offered the tree of life because they don't have a heavenly purpose - just a natural one. Nature can be indifferent (Hambre will love me saying this) - but God in the bible - seems to only care for us.I have a few questions for God though - like, why do animals feel pain? Do they feel it like we do? If they do - isn't this cruel?
-- I've always wondered about this, and hope God doesn't see this as an attack on Him.

Seriously now? Respectfully, I believe if you read my OP and previous statements my intent was to portray that I do not believe that Adam was immortal upon creation and that the physical death of living animals was part of God's creation and therefore not grounds for opposing evolution.Granted, it is still assuming that Genesis is even true but I wanted to take an approach to one creationist argument that I believe can be refuted with biblical evidence rather than scientific.The key here is mortality. Does the Bible teach lack of mortality pre-fall? I think it specifically does not. Therefore can this be a good refutation of this single hangup for certain creationists in this debate.The rest of your post deals with the death of creatures post-fall so really it becomes a subjective thing. Given that mankind and animals have survival instincts goes to show you that life is somehow treasured by the living yet we all eventually die. There may even be support that this post-fall physical death is negative from the perspective of humanity but I want to know if there is biblical support for physical death not being "very good" as part of the pre-fall creation.

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-Nasser