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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 1 of 107 (41563)
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


Today a friend was telling me about a book by Mark Twain that scoffs at Christianity (no surprise there). One of the things he mentions is that Christians have invented (in Twain's opinion) a god, but he never answers any of their prayers.

I can understand that. Charles Finney, a famous 19th century evangelist, had the same complaint about the Presbyterians in his home town. They had no faith, he said, and their prayers all went unanswered.

Maybe 15 years ago I was attending a typical evangelical church, and a child was severely injured in a bike accident. We stayed at the hospital for days, praying. I think I was there overnight two or three nights in a row. The boy never woke up, and he died. The parents were devastated, especially the mom.

I told some people on this web site that I've seen evidence for the supernatural. Not necessarily repeatable, testable evidence, but certainly court room type evidence, where you listen to witnesses. I'd like to try to present some. I've left Christianity now, to join with people who've been willing to go pretty far for God, and I think the life we live is pretty amazing.

We often have men's meetings on Saturday mornings. One morning we were meeting, and one of the men's wives was having a baby. (The man wasn't at the meeting, of course, he was at home with his wife.) I don't remember the problem, but I do remember it frightened the midwife enough for her to interrupt the meeting and ask us to pray. One of the men started to pray, but he really never got very far, because a child was sent to tell us the emergency was over. I think the baby needed to turn, or the cord was around the baby's neck, or something.

There was a car accident involving one of the mothers in our village and three of her kids. Her 7-year-old was hurt by the seat belt. It ruptured her spleen and nearly severed her liver. I was on vacation in California at the time. We were all horrified. We began to pray. By that evening, something began to settle over us, even me in California. The dad of the 7-year-old called me, and I told him, "I'm scared to tell you this, in case I'm wrong, but I feel like everything's okay; there's nothing to worry about."

We, as a group, could feel it, although it went against our natural human urge to worry. At one point the evening of the accident (which happened in the morning) one of our men told another, "Relax. I don't think you need to pray anymore." Many of us felt that way. It turned out to be true. She recovered completely (although her spleen was taken out that first night).

In case it seems like we just "trust in faith" or something, another time one of our ladies took a sudden illness. She went to the hospital, was sent home, went back in a couple days, and was immediately sent by helicopter to a bigger facility. We prayed and prayed, until the one of our men said, "We need to let her go. God's calling her home." Many of us could tell that was true (not me, I wondered), but she died the next morning, in the hospital. The hospital was never able to determine the cause of the sickness.

That may sound awful, but the results were great. The husband was not devastated. He was comforted in advance (though not much in advance). He was confident that it was the hand of God (we all have to die sometime, anyway), and we were able to rejoice, because we believe she's better off now, not subject to the woes of this body and earthly life. (We held a celebration and danced at her funeral, as did her husband, because we don't believe life ends at the death of the body, nor do we consider ourselves separated for her except in natural ways. Paul said he wrote what he wrote in the Letter to the Thessalonians so that we wouldn't mourn as others mourn.)

Sometimes when people join our village, we give them new names. We were visiting with a couple in North Carolina, about three families of us, that had decided to come live with us, and together we came up with a name for the wife. It's the Hebrew word for dove, Naqi. At the same time, back in Tennessee, a couple had given birth to a baby. They picked a name for her, too. It was Naqi.

We don't have anyone else here, among 200 people, named Naqi. We do tend to give Hebrew names (well, we did then), but there are a lot of Hebrew words, and Naqi is not a name, as far as we know, of anyone in the Bible.

We used to use banners a lot. I had heard stories from before I joined about an individual banner swinging wildly while hanging outside on a windless day. Even as a new member I had my doubts, figuring there was some good explanation. Until, that is, I was at a gathering, standing about 2 feet from a banner hanging on a pole that began swinging wildly. I was talking at the time (any of us can talk at our gatherings), but I paused to wave my hand next to the banner, trying to figure out if there was a breeze around it I couldn't feel. Nothing at all, and it was a 4-foot long, 3 foot wide banner, swinging at least two feet from side to side, quite rapidly.

By themselves, maybe none of these things mean much. However, I could gather hundreds of these stories. Our prayers are answered, regularly. We live confidently by that inner voice that has helped us to know "this is an emergency, go to the hospital," or "there's nothing to worry about, put a little medicine on it."

Oh, this was important to me. I walked into our living room one day, back when we had a main communal house, and the living room was full--about twenty adults I reckon. Two adults were sitting on the couch, their backs to the kitchen door I was coming in, and I immediately felt bad about them, like they were evil or something. (Sorry for using evil, I don't know what else to use.) I sat down in the living room, and about five minutes later my three-year-old came in, who hadn't seen this couple before in his life. He looked at them, came immediately to my wife and I and said, "There's two people here who aren't supposed to be here."

We get lots of visitors, or we did then, and he'd never acted like that before or since.

Like I said, I could go on and on with stories like this. Maybe not proof to anybody, but I think it's certainly evidence. You decide how strong or weak. Personally, I'm not satisfied with Richard Dawkins' argument that with 6 billion people on earth, the odds are that very unusual things will happen; things with chances like one in 6 billion. Maybe, but I'm only one, and our village is only 200, and I live in these sorts of things day in and day out.


Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1970 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 2 of 107 (41582)
05-28-2003 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


There are undoubtedly many reports of paranormal
activity from around the globe. This is largely discounted
in mainstream science because it cannot be investigated by
standard scientific method (or there are subconscious biases
at work ... it's hard to say which).

What is behind these is up for debate, and without thorough
investigation it would be impossible to say.

In the meantime ... beleive what ever makes you most comfortable,
but have the decency to let others do likewise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 05-28-2003 3:43 AM truthlover has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 05-28-2003 11:20 AM Peter has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18261
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 3 of 107 (41607)
05-28-2003 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Peter
05-28-2003 7:05 AM


Peter writes:

In the meantime ... beleive what ever makes you most comfortable,
but have the decency to let others do likewise.

I think it's probably fine with most of us to let people believe what they want. We only object to calling it scientific to accept the existence of something for which there is no evidence.

If you want to believe in the supernatural, fine, probably most of us have no problem with that. But if you want to call your belief in the supernatural scientific, then I think most of us would have a *big* problem with that.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Peter, posted 05-28-2003 7:05 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1970 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 4 of 107 (41677)
05-29-2003 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
05-28-2003 11:20 AM


That's more or less what I was trying to say ...
but you said it a lot better
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 05-28-2003 11:20 AM Percy has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 107 (41760)
05-30-2003 12:17 AM


I became a Christian at age 10 58 years ago. I've had scores of unusual answers to prayer which I am positive were supernatural. However I do not expect a non-Christian to accept these as evidence for the supernatural, simply because as pointed out I can't prove to someone else that these were indeed answers to prayer.

Rather, I choose to use such things as fulfilled prophecy. For example, It has been widely prophesied in the Bible both by OT prophets and NT prophets like Jesus himself and John that Israel would be dispersed worldwide and would return in the latter days to be surrounded by enemy armies and prevail to remain a nation of Israelites at a time when the gospel of Jesus would be preached worldwide until he, Jesus, messiah returns. After 19 centuries this is right on track. That's just one of scores of prophecies, a few of which have been mentioned elswhere here in town.


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 107 (41834)
05-31-2003 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
05-30-2003 12:17 AM


buzsaw writes:

quote:
Rather, I choose to use such things as fulfilled prophecy. For example, It has been widely prophesied in the Bible both by OT prophets and NT prophets like Jesus himself and John that Israel would be dispersed worldwide and would return in the latter days to be surrounded by enemy armies and prevail to remain a nation of Israelites at a time when the gospel of Jesus would be preached worldwide until he, Jesus, messiah returns. After 19 centuries this is right on track.

Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.

Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Pretty direct.

Are you telling us that there are some 2000-year-old people running around?

If I prophesy that something is goint to happen before the end of the year and it doesn't happen until centuries later, then I did not make an accurate prophecy.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2003 12:17 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by truthlover, posted 05-31-2003 8:41 PM Rrhain has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2003 9:40 PM Rrhain has responded

    
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 7 of 107 (41869)
05-31-2003 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
05-31-2003 3:55 AM


quote:
The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.

Boy, this seems awful strict. When someone says a nation will be dispersed, then return in the latter days, and they don't have their own nation for 1870 years, but then their land is restored, that seems pretty impressive to me, even if the British were trying to fulfill the prophecy on purpose.

Of course, your other point about the "within this generation" and "some of you will still be living" is obviously a good answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 107 (41871)
05-31-2003 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
05-31-2003 3:55 AM


quote:
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.

1. They have been on every continent with the exception of possibly Antartica.

2. The longer they are out of their homeland and the longer they are dispersed somewhere, the more the miracle, as normally they would've lost their national and blood identity via integration into the nations.

3. The British government was engrossed in Biblical prophecy?? And the British government had/has such an interest in preaching Biblical fundamentalistic prophecy so as to work to artificially fulfill it? I don't think so.

quote:

Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


Most attribute the fulfillment of this to the transfiguring of Christ in the glory of the transiguration when he stood appearing with Moses and Elijah on the mountain. The apostles James and John witnessed this. As for the reference in Mark 14:62, he may have been referring to the nation in general rather than the specific person to whom he was speaking or he may have been referring to the time of the resurrection of the dead which will happen in the last days of the age. In this reference he did not specify that it would happen before their death.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by zephyr, posted 05-31-2003 10:35 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 06-04-2003 4:04 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2597 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 9 of 107 (41877)
05-31-2003 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
05-31-2003 9:40 PM


quote:
Most attribute the fulfillment of this to the transfiguring of Christ in the glory of the transiguration when he stood appearing with Moses and Elijah on the mountain. The apostles James and John witnessed this. As for the reference in Mark 14:62, he may have been referring to the nation in general rather than the specific person to whom he was speaking or he may have been referring to the time of the resurrection of the dead which will happen in the last days of the age. In this reference he did not specify that it would happen before their death.


If you're willing to take such drastic liberties with the meaning of the words of Jesus himself, why is it so hard for you to accept a non-literal interpretation of Genesis? You can manipulate the semantics all you want, but what you have is a clear-cut double standard.

Incidentally, don't you think the "resurrection of the dead" would imply that they had in fact tasted death before his return?

[This message has been edited by zephyr, 05-31-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2003 9:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 10 of 107 (42035)
06-04-2003 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
05-31-2003 9:40 PM


buzsaw responds to me:

quote:
quote:
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.

1. They have been on every continent with the exception of possibly Antartica.


That's not dispersal. That's emigration. The two are not the same.

quote:
2. The longer they are out of their homeland and the longer they are dispersed somewhere, the more the miracle,

No, the exact opposite is true. The longer it takes, the less likely that it's a miracle and the more likely it is just natural circumstance.

A random particle moving in a constrained space will eventually cross the same point twice. It isn't a miracle...it's what you expect to have happen.

quote:
as normally they would've lost their national and blood identity via integration into the nations.

But if I deliberately set out to make a prophecy come true, then it isn't a prophecy being fulfilled. It's a personal agenda. If I prophesy that the next word you say will be "flabbergast" and you, knowing this prophesy, decide to make it come true by indeed saying "flabbergast," then it is not a fulfilled prophecy.

It's simply you having a personal agenda.

quote:
3. The British government was engrossed in Biblical prophecy??

Yes. Have you not read the history of the creation of Israel? It was in the making since the beginning of the 20th century. With the collapse of the Ottoman Turks at the end of WWI, Britain got control over the area and set about making a Jewish state.

quote:
And the British government had/has such an interest in preaching Biblical fundamentalistic prophecy so as to work to artificially fulfill it? I don't think so.

And yet, that's precisely what happened. Were the Brits deliberately trying to fulfill prophecy? I doubt it. But where would you expect them to have made the Jewish state? India? Hong Kong? No, of course it's going to be in the Middle East in and around Jerusalem...that's where they've been so excited about for so long.

That isn't fulfillment of prophecy. That's simply doing the most logical thing.

quote:
quote:
Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.


Most attribute the fulfillment of this to the transfiguring of Christ in the glory of the transiguration when he stood appearing with Moses and Elijah on the mountain.


But that isn't what the Bible says. It is very specific that the end of days was at hand.

Matthew 16:28, 23:36, 24:34, 26:64
Mark 9:1, 13:30, 14:62
Luke 9:27, 21:32
John 21:22
Philippians 4:5
1 Thessalonians 4:17, 5:23
Hebrews 1:2, 10:37
James 5:8
1 Peter 1:20, 4:7
1 John 2:18
1 John 4:3
Revelation 1:1, 1:3, 3:11, 22:7, 22:12, 22:20

I guess I really do need to go through them all. Note that when some context would be appropriate to understand the meaning of the specific verse, I have included it:

Matthew 16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 23:36: Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
23:38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
23:39: For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Matthew 26:62: And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
26:63: But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
26:64: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 9:1: And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 13:30: Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
13:31: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
13:32: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mark 14:60: And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
14:62: And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke 9:27: But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 21:31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
21:32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

John 21:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Philippians 4:5: Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

1 Thessalonians 4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 10:36: For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37: For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

James 5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
5:8: Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

1 Peter 1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 Peter 4:7: But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 John 2:17: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Revelation 1:1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 3:1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[...]
3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 22:6: And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
22:7: Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
[...]
22:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[...]
22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I especially like 1 John 4:3: This means that the Antichrist has been around for about 2000 years. How long will it be before the trap is sprung?

quote:
The apostles James and John witnessed this.

But both James and John say that the end time is at hand.

quote:
As for the reference in Mark 14:62, he may have been referring to the nation in general rather than the specific person to whom he was speaking or he may have been referring to the time of the resurrection of the dead which will happen in the last days of the age. In this reference he did not specify that it would happen before their death.

Incorrect. I have provided the entire context. Jesus was talking directly to the High Priest telling him that he would live to see the second coming:

Mark 14:60: And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
14:62: And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

There is no doubt about it: According to the Bible, the end of the world was supposed to have hundreds of years ago.

Perhaps that's why so many Christians are so cranky...the world really did end and this is hell.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2003 9:40 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 11 of 107 (43070)
06-16-2003 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
06-04-2003 4:04 AM


'There is no doubt about it: According to the Bible, the end of the world was supposed to have hundreds of years ago.

Perhaps that's why so many Christians are so cranky...the world really did end and this is hell.'

lol, he goes and qoutes scripture and expects us to interperate it in the same way he does! but still i hear Jesus' voice and not yours Rrhain! guess you havent converted me.


This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 107 (43071)
06-16-2003 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
06-04-2003 4:04 AM


'And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[...]
22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus'AMEN

'For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'

ofcourse he means the jewish in the end times here because the jews would not say 'blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'as they where the ones who did not believe, but in the end times when they turn to God they will say 'blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'...

'But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father'

exactly Rrhain no man knows , have not you read from Peter?

'But that isn't what the Bible says. It is very specific that the end of days was at hand.'

however when i read near the end of the bible it says there will be people who scoff and say where is he? your arguments are not that strong !

he (Jesus)says the kingdom is at hand ,he could mean because he lays down his life and therefore they are closer to the kingdom and being saved from sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rrhain, posted 06-04-2003 4:04 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Gzus, posted 06-17-2003 6:42 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 107 (43103)
06-17-2003 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
06-16-2003 8:24 PM


Even so,

quote:

Matthew 23:36: Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

how clear can you get?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2003 8:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 14 of 107 (44731)
07-01-2003 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


Natural/Supernatural
Do supernatural things just naturally occur?

The Bible calls thunder the voice of God. Is thunder natural or supernatural?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 05-28-2003 3:43 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by truthlover, posted 07-02-2003 12:27 AM doctrbill has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 15 of 107 (44807)
07-02-2003 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by doctrbill
07-01-2003 12:21 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
Do supernatural things just naturally occur? The Bible calls thunder the voice of God. Is thunder natural or supernatural?

Um...I don't know how to answer this. I can handle the thunder question. Thunder's natural.

I think supernatural things occur looking quite natural pretty regularly. I think thunder can be sent at the exact time to get a message across to a person, and then it's natural and supernatural both.

I don't understand the point of the question, though. Maybe it's obvious, but I'm not getting it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by doctrbill, posted 07-01-2003 12:21 AM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by doctrbill, posted 07-02-2003 1:18 AM truthlover has not yet responded
 Message 19 by nator, posted 07-03-2003 10:18 AM truthlover has not yet responded

  
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