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Author Topic:   Can I view the Bible manuscripts anywhere?
The Revenge of Reason
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 27 (96046)
03-30-2004 4:12 PM


It seems that most discussions in this forum regress to a debate over Bible translation and the errors that could have occured when copying from older manuscripts. Could anyone direct me to a site (or book, or whatever) were I could view these old manuscript(such as p52 (John Rylands), p104 (=P. Oxyrhynchusa 4404), p87, etc) as they were originally written? Also, does anyone know of a site where I could then translate the Hebrew and Greek into English? I would like to be able to look at the oldest writtings we have to see if they contain the same contradictions that our Bible translations have. Is there any such way to get a look at these old manuscripts? Thanks in advance for any info that you may provide.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2004 4:46 PM The Revenge of Reason has replied
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 03-30-2004 5:52 PM The Revenge of Reason has not replied
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 05-04-2004 1:06 PM The Revenge of Reason has not replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 27 (96056)
03-30-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Revenge of Reason
03-30-2004 4:12 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Revenge of Reason, posted 03-30-2004 4:12 PM The Revenge of Reason has replied

Replies to this message:
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The Revenge of Reason
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 27 (96068)
03-30-2004 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by PaulK
03-30-2004 4:46 PM


Thanks for the link Paul. Hopefully there will be more to come from others, but (like you said) it's a start!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2004 4:46 PM PaulK has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 27 (96074)
03-30-2004 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Revenge of Reason
03-30-2004 4:12 PM


babel fish
the best translation site I know is babel fish (after D. Adams, Hitchhiker, I believe)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
it does greek but it doesn't do hebrew(yet?)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 27 (105160)
05-04-2004 8:49 AM


...
The whole Translation process was not hard at all..Besides the fact that God has preserved his word through persecution,criticism,time etc...The translation of Gods word has not changed much besides words that no longer exist etc..The meaning is the same...
---ORIGINAL TEXT (150AD)---Translated to:
--SYRIAC------------GREEK------------LATIN--translated:
-----VARIOUS COPIES NOW EXTANT------
There are more than 15,000 existing copies of various versions...They cross reference to be almost identical but of course different letters and language..God gave the bible to the world not just for the original texts readers...

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 27 (105191)
05-04-2004 10:40 AM


There are actually vast differences
between different versions, and they often are around relatively common words.
for example...
Leviticus 25:44 from the Revised Standard
44: As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you.
but in the King James Version...
44: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
There can be vastly different means given to the terms Bondsman and Slave.
This is particularly important because at the time the King James Version was written, slavery was quite common and certainly well known.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 27 (105231)
05-04-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Revenge of Reason
03-30-2004 4:12 PM


Revenge, for a relatively small outlay of cash you can go to a Bible book store, or for that matter a larger general book store and buy yourself a Hebrew to English interlinear Old Testament and a Greek to English interlinear New Testament. I have both and use them a lot when I really want the closest equivalent to the original existing. The interlinear gives the ancient text with the nearest English equivalent directly under each word of the interlinear.
With the New Testament it is nice to have two interlinears, of which I also have both, one for each of the two primary texts used by translators. The first was the Received text which uses manuscripts generally that are not as old as the other. The other is the text which is taken from some earlier manuscripts. The Received text was used by the King James translators and other lesser translators who went by that text. The Alexandrian text was first used in the 1901 American Standard Bible (ASB) and then later by revisionists of that original work such as the Revised American Standard Version (RASV), the New International Version (NIV), and the New American Standard Version (NASV).
Being a more literalist fundamentalist, my preference and the one I use of all the Bibles is the old 1901 American Standard Bible. Imo, this is the most literal and closest to the original text that exists. Not only that, but to me it makes more sense in some areas. Unfortunately it's one of the least used and hardest to find of all the translations. For one thing, it gives the proper name of God used over 6000 times in all the oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament, but has been revised/changed from the proper name, Jehovah/Yaweh/Yhwh to Lord by nearly all translators due to, imo, a silly superstitious notion by later century OT Jews that the name was too sacred to utter or write. Imo, if it was not intended by God to be uttered or written he wouldn't have directed the writers of the books to use it in the first place those thousands of times.
[This message has been edited buzsaw, 05-04-2004]

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 27 (105239)
05-04-2004 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
03-30-2004 5:52 PM


Re: babel fish
the best translation site I know is babel fish (after D. Adams, Hitchhiker, I believe)
Thanks Raz. You're good! I deal with some international people on ebay and this will be great for that. The link will be very useful on other occasions, but there is some differences in the ancient Greek used in the NT and the modern Greek which this site uses. It will be close, but with the modern Greek rendering of the words. I copied my interlinear literal Engilsh words and had the link translate them back into Greek to determine the differences.

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sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 9 of 27 (105242)
05-04-2004 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Revenge of Reason
03-30-2004 4:12 PM


I would like to be able to look at the oldest writtings we have to see if they contain the same contradictions that our Bible translations have. Is there any such way to get a look at these old manuscripts? Thanks in advance for any info that you may provide.
A modern critical edition of the Greek NT (which currently means the UBS/Nestle-Aland text) provides information about every variant reading that appears in the manuscripts. There are very few place in the NT where variant readings make much difference, however.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 27 (109746)
05-21-2004 7:16 PM


Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
they have the hebrew root words, and the greek root words, and occasionally actual transcriptions of the septuigint.

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 11 of 27 (109762)
05-21-2004 7:50 PM


Here is a FREE bible download site(with search engine), some of the versions have the hebrew greek words, you can check the hebrew/greek words by numbers and see how the words were chosen by the translators, this site has all but a few of the modern bible versions, so you can create a simple parallel bible, it has a lot of other free stuff commentaries, I only downloaded the kjv so not sure if the other bible versions have the hebrew/greek to english, but its a good place to start, cause its free, etc...
P.S. Gutenberg goal was to saturate the world with the Word, and the internet has made the word free, enjoy, etc...
e-Sword | Error 404
Site says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately I am unable to provide modules of the following translations at this time. I have made attempts to gain permission from the copyright holders for these resources listed, but some have declined their use and still others have not responded at all. I hope to be able to provide some of these to you one day.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New American Bible
New English Translation
New International Version
New King James Bible
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
Revised Standard Version

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 27 (119769)
06-29-2004 12:24 AM


CODEX MAYERIANUS 48 AD
From the Dr. Gene Scott Bible Museum, Los Angeles, California:
1862 [London] reproduction:
Codex Mayerianus is several papyrus fragments from Thebes, Upper Egypt found by Rev. Henry Stobart, sold to Joseph Mayer of Liverpool.
One fragment containing the end of the 28th chapter of Matthew (in greek):
"The writing by the hand of Nicolaus the Deacon, at the dictation of Matthew, the apostle of Jesus Christ. It was done in the fifteenth year after the Ascension of our Lord, and was distributed to the believing Jews and Greeks in Palestine."
Eminent scholar Constantine Simonides Ph.D. carefully sorted for Mayer all the Stobart manuscripts.
This is more proof that extinguishes spurious claims of decades later pseudepigrapha.
Willowtree
pyramidial@yahoo.com

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 27 (119844)
06-29-2004 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
06-29-2004 12:24 AM


Re: CODEX MAYERIANUS 48 AD
That would be Constantine Simonides, the seller of forged manuscripts ?
( http://webtext.library.yale.edu/beinflat/pre1600.MS583.htm )
A copy of the book may be found in this collection:
Library, Museums and Press – Online Exhibitions
I don't think that a 19th Century forgery has any bearing on the antiquity of the Gospels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-29-2004 12:24 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 27 (119912)
06-29-2004 9:29 AM


unsure on the accuracy, of course, but i found this on the blue letter bible site the other day: Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
here's an even older version: Page Not Found
here's another good one: Jewish Bible (JPS 1917)
they're all over the place, actually.

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 15 of 27 (120103)
06-29-2004 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
06-29-2004 4:48 AM


Re: CODEX MAYERIANUS 48 AD
quote:
I don't think that a 19th Century forgery has any bearing on the antiquity of the Gospels.
I agree.
quote:
That would be Constantine Simonides, the seller of forged manuscripts ?
Your link asserts forgeries. I'm sure there are two sides to this story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 06-29-2004 4:48 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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