Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8891 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-20-2019 8:11 PM
158 online now:
dwise1, Meddle, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat), Theodoric (5 members, 153 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Upcoming Birthdays: CosmicChimp
Post Volume:
Total: 847,739 Year: 2,776/19,786 Month: 858/1,918 Week: 145/301 Day: 28/35 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23Next
Author Topic:   What would heaven be like?
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 33 (27791)
12-24-2002 1:47 PM


I i went to heaven, would i be able to 'sin'? or would that priveledge be taken away?

If I went to hell, would I be able to do 'good'?

if all is 'good', there is no such thing as 'good' since what do you measure 'goodness' by? won't you always do the most 'good' thing making your life predictable, unfree and robot-like? or do you have the choice to 'sin', preserving your free will?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-24-2002 3:16 PM Gzus has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-24-2002 11:14 PM Gzus has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Brad McFall, posted 12-24-2002 11:25 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 33 (27794)
12-24-2002 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-24-2002 1:47 PM


I don't profess to know what heaven will be like. I think it will be like going home after being exiled and imprisoned in a horrible land.

if all is 'good', there is no such thing as 'good' since what do you measure 'goodness' by? won't you always do the most 'good' thing making your life predictable, unfree and robot-like? or do you have the choice to 'sin', preserving your free will?

I don't think we will ever lose the memories of our life here on earth, we will remember the horror of sin and it's terrible consequence and burden. There will still be something to measure it by and maybe that is why it was necessary for us to live this life here in these bodies.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-24-2002 1:47 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by doctrbill, posted 12-24-2002 9:52 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 12 by Coragyps, posted 12-25-2002 8:30 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 811 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 3 of 33 (27810)
12-24-2002 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-24-2002 3:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky: I don't think we will ever lose the memories of our life here on earth, we will remember the horror of sin and it's terrible consequence and burden.

How can it be "heaven" if we are haunted by horrible and terrible memories?

db


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-24-2002 3:16 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:36 AM doctrbill has responded

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 33 (27819)
12-24-2002 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-24-2002 1:47 PM


I heard heaven is much hotter than hell. In hell, there's boiling rivers of sulfur. However the brilliance that is described in heaven would make iron vaporize.

------------------
When all else fails, check the manual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-24-2002 1:47 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:41 AM Mr. Davies has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3080 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 5 of 33 (27820)
12-24-2002 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gzus
12-24-2002 1:47 PM


What would the "priveldge" of 'sin' be. There have been quite a few programs on Christianity this seasons I have wondered if perhaps you are confusing in this as a question between the righteous and the unrighteous. I do not however intend to cosmologically cause you to think that in so saying I have "narrowed" your mind.

As to goodness I am taking a strictly US interpretation from the undelegated powers to STATES or citizens by the 10th ammendment but by the 11th it can not be defined by what a state did that was 'bad'instead I would have to have had it built in case law from violation socially of something true in the biological community of Aristotle's position but the distribution of such a power I have not principalled on this station on Earth. First it would be known biologically as to the equality of all men. This however could be alineated by some virtual reality however. As to how this totally is cut out that may depend on distinguishing this legal appearence from the appearence of truth itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gzus, posted 12-24-2002 1:47 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by shilohproject, posted 12-25-2002 6:24 PM Brad McFall has responded

    
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 33 (27838)
12-25-2002 2:04 PM


How did the 11th amendment get into this? And what the hell does it have to do with Aristotle!!!

Speak sense mate


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brad McFall, posted 12-25-2002 2:43 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 33 (27839)
12-25-2002 2:07 PM


The privilege of sin is basically our free will to right and wrong
Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-25-2002 2:44 PM Gzus has responded
 Message 17 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-26-2002 4:45 AM Gzus has responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3080 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 8 of 33 (27845)
12-25-2002 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:04 PM


When you are ready to talk sense we will. One of the difficulties is that because your posts are generic and do not display to which you replied is not easy enough to weave the same density of thread otherwise. I gave you my (BRAD's) perspective. I do not speak "for the guys" as you noted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:04 PM Gzus has not yet responded

    
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3080 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 9 of 33 (27846)
12-25-2002 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:07 PM


Then why is it a "priveledge"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:07 PM Gzus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:59 PM Brad McFall has not yet responded

    
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 33 (27849)
12-25-2002 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Brad McFall
12-25-2002 2:44 PM


Yes, ok, I admit

Privilege presupposes want, which presupposes purpose, which presupposes meaning etc. all of which by the way, I hold (through the reasoning of past philosophers) to be delusions of the human ‘mind’ which has no freedom. –let’s not get into that shall we.

But I accept your point. A privilege it is not, for those who do not hold the maxim ‘freedom is good’. But the existence of sin is a necessity for freedom since if all is good, perfect, then there can be no other choice than perfection (assuming that sin has meaning and that it is not merely a delusion).

I am attempting merely to find fault in the biblical interpretation of heaven by revealing a seeming violation of free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Brad McFall, posted 12-25-2002 2:44 PM Brad McFall has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 8:47 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 33 (27863)
12-25-2002 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brad McFall
12-24-2002 11:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
As to goodness I am taking a strictly US interpretation from the undelegated powers to STATES or citizens by the 10th ammendment but by the 11th it can not be defined by what a state did that was 'bad'instead I would have to have had it built in case law from violation socially of something true in the biological community of Aristotle's position but the distribution of such a power I have not principalled on this station on Earth. First it would be known biologically as to the equality of all men. This however could be alineated by some virtual reality however. As to how this totally is cut out that may depend on distinguishing this legal appearence from the appearence of truth itself.

Brad,
Could you restate this? I'm not getting it, at all. Sorry.

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brad McFall, posted 12-24-2002 11:25 PM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Brad McFall, posted 12-29-2002 10:35 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5376
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 12 of 33 (27869)
12-25-2002 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-24-2002 3:16 PM


quote:
we will remember the horror of sin and it's terrible consequence and burden.

Errm.... What terrible consequence and burden might that be? I'm not any more or less moral than ol' Joe Blow over there, but neither have I noticed all that baggage. Sure, a pang of guilt if I forget to call my mother on her birthday, but....

Oh, and back to the OT: Whose heaven? The Mohammedan one is a little better described, and sound a heck of a lot more entertaining, than the Christian one.

[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 12-25-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-24-2002 3:16 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

    
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 33 (27870)
12-25-2002 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:59 PM


Originally posted by Gzus:
Privilege presupposes want, which presupposes purpose, which presupposes meaning etc. all of which by the way, I hold (through the reasoning of past philosophers) to be delusions of the human ‘mind’ which has no freedom. –let’s not get into that shall we.

let's do get into it... what exactly are you saying?

But I accept your point. A privilege it is not, for those who do not hold the maxim ‘freedom is good’. But the existence of sin is a necessity for freedom since if all is good, perfect, then there can be no other choice than perfection (assuming that sin has meaning and that it is not merely a delusion).

please explain how "..the existence of sin is a necessity for freedom.." ... imagine sin as a disease and not, as you seem to suggest, something we'd *choose* for ourselves if we had a choice... now imagine a place where this disease is unknown.. how does its absence limit our freedom?

I am attempting merely to find fault in the biblical interpretation of heaven by revealing a seeming violation of free will.

i don't think you've found it with this argument


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:59 PM Gzus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 1:44 AM forgiven has responded

  
shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 33 (27878)
12-26-2002 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by forgiven
12-25-2002 8:47 PM


Question: If no one is capable of a sin-free life (other than Christ, which I believe) then how is sin a function of free will?

If I am unable, by definition, to fly, how can my failure to fly be held as a product of my "free will?"

Isn't it more reasonable to simply accept the idea that God alone is holy, that we are not, and that this is simply a result of our imperfection? If one uses this paradigm, then so-called "free will" is not an issue in heaven. I enjoy my health and do not need to be sick occasionally to help me value wellness. An illness might in fact have that result, but it certainly is not required.

In keeping with this analogy, being free from "sin" in heaven, or anywhere for that matter, might simply put us into a state of holiness that could best be described as "well."

I don't need to go slam a rig of heroin to know that it isn't for me.

Does this make any sense?

(Side bar: my wife just walked in and pointed out that, if you are a literalist, angels in heaven revolted against God, which would have to be "sin." So, the question that follows is: Do angels have free will? Clearly THEY had the ability to sin in heaven. Of course one could argue that angels were never bought by the blood of Christ. So I'm not sure how that plays into all this.)

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by forgiven, posted 12-25-2002 8:47 PM forgiven has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 12:02 PM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 33 (27880)
12-26-2002 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by doctrbill
12-24-2002 9:52 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky: I don't think we will ever lose the memories of our life here on earth, we will remember the horror of sin and it's terrible consequence and burden.

How can it be "heaven" if we are haunted by horrible and terrible memories?

db


I didn't say anything about being haunted by sin, rather exactly the opposite.

Could you ever appreciate summer if there was no winter?

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by doctrbill, posted 12-24-2002 9:52 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 12:49 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 28 by doctrbill, posted 12-28-2002 11:00 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

  
1
23Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019