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Author Topic:   The 30 Commandments
Atreides
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 18 (343140)
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


There were 3 sets of the ten commandments in the bible, thus, 30 commandments. They were very different too. There's Deuteronomy 5:6-21, Exodus 20:1-17, and Exodus 34:12-27 Deuteronomy 5:6-21 is what you will find usually quoted:
Deut. 5:6 I am Yahweh thy god, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh, thy god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy god in vain: for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
5:12 Keep the Sabbath day to sanctify it, as Yahweh thy god hath commanded thee.
5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
5:14 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh thy god: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy male slave, nor thy female slave, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy male slave and thy female slave may rest as well as thou.
5:15 And remember that thou wast a slave in the land of Egypt, and that Yahweh thy god brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore Yahweh thy god commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.
5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as Yahweh thy god hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which Yahweh thy god giveth thee.
5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou cast an evil eye upon thy neighbour's house, his field, or his male slave, or his female slave, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
5:22 These words Yahweh spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me
Exodus 20:1-17 is almost the same with some slight changes, not only in wording, but in rational for the the resting of slaves on the sabbath.:
Exodus 20:11 For in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
This reasoning is instead of sympathy for the slave's condition, which is the reasoning found in the following verses of Deuteronomy:
5:14 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh thy god: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy male slave, nor thy female slave, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy male slave and thy female slave may rest as well as thou.
5:15 And remember that thou wast a slave in the land of Egypt, and that Yahweh thy god brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore Yahweh thy god commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.
Now Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 are quite similar, so the radically differing commandments are found in Exodus 34:12-27 These have been numbered for convenience, and reveal a bible that most christians deny exist.
The First Commandment
34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
The Second Commandment
34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god:
34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
The Third Commandment
34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
The Fourth Commandment
34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
The Fifth Commandment
34:19 Every first birth of the womb is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
The Sixth Commandment
34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
The Seventh Commandment
34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the years end.
34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before Lord Yahweh, the god of Israel.
34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before Yahweh thy god thrice in the year.
The Eighth Commandment
34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the Passover be left unto the morning.
The Ninth Commandment
34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of Yahweh thy god.
The Tenth Commandment
Thou shalt not seethe [cook] a kid [baby goat] in his mothers milk. (part of 34:26 but arguably a commandment in it's own right)
The morals found in these commandments can be questionable at best, including such things as the sacrifice of animals, and rituals of war. Not to mention that the mentions of feasts and rules for passover sacrifices are a far cry from what is usually hung on bible school walls. If the bible were infallable, then why are there radically different sets of commandments? And why propose to hang the ten commandments without specifying which ones? If you look at the entire picture, the ten commandments look less like ways to live your life, and more like an early society in the desert. Especially when you consider that slavery is perfectly ok in the bible, as indicated by the passages containing references to hebrews owning slaves. My basic question is that of, why are these commandments not the same, and are these any rules to live life by? Just a challenging of both the infallability of the bible and it's use as a moral code.
Edited by Atreides, : I'm new, so i didn't quite understand how making new topics worked.
Edited by Atreides, : Just cleaning things up a bit and adding more to the original post after more thinking.
Edited by Atreides, : Small clarifications and correcting of an incorrect verse number.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Coragyps, posted 08-25-2006 7:39 AM Atreides has not replied
 Message 7 by ramoss, posted 08-25-2006 7:59 AM Atreides has not replied
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 18 (343143)
08-24-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atreides
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


It takes a lot more
Welcome to EvC Atreides.
I'm afraid that this won't do as an OP (opening post) of a new discussion. You'll have to flesh it out a lot.
You might start by listing the 3 sets or, at least, the set of different commandments culled from those 3 sets.
If you wish to discuss these you might give you own views to get it going.
Just edit the OP and then post a reply to attract attention. Where would you like it to go?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Atreides, posted 08-24-2006 8:56 PM Atreides has replied

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Atreides
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 18 (343147)
08-24-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
08-24-2006 9:03 PM


Re: It takes a lot more
Yeah, sorry about that, wasn't quite sure if it was in fact the opening post when i wrote it. But i included the 3 sets, as well as pondered the infallability of the bible. I hope it'll do as an opening post, because i did not see any topic like it in the bible forum. Just as a small side note, this should logically go in The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy forum. My intention for this topic is to question the accuracy of the bible, and part of it's interpretation as a moral code.
Edited by Atreides, : A small note

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 18 (343185)
08-25-2006 1:20 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 5 of 18 (343204)
08-25-2006 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atreides
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


The morals found in these commandments can be questionable at best, including such things as the sacrifice of animals, and rituals of war. Not to mention that the mentions of feasts and rules for passover sacrifices are a far cry from what is usually hung on bible school walls. If the bible were infallable, then why are there radically different sets of commandments? And why propose to hang the ten commandments without specifying which ones? If you look at the entire picture, the ten commandments look less like ways to live your life, and more like an early society in the desert. Especially when you consider that slavery is perfectly ok in the bible, as indicated by the passages containing references to hebrews owning slaves. My basic question is that of, why are these commandments not the same, and are these any rules to live life by? Just a challenging of both the infallability of the bible and it's use as a moral code.
Well to first start off for your question of why there are three sets and they differ, its because the editors of the jewish text were compiling several different versions of the same thing from different periods of the jewish religion, exodus 20 is i think from an earlier time than exodus 34, all three show a change in adatude of the author nad the changes of the jewish people throughout the periods
Exodus 20:1-17: this seems like before they really had people starting to change beliefs from yehwah worship, people didn't turn from god yet
Exodus 34:12-27:sounds like people started worshiping other gods, maybe after the split
Deuteronomy 5:6-21: this is written mostly by priests so they would return to enforcing the older version in exodus 20
just like the genesis stories and the floods, it was all compiled, but they are changes to reflect differing views and beliefs
My basic question is that of, why are these commandments not the same, and are these any rules to live life by?
they are writen by different people and not moses like people claim, it would be impossible. they are only good rules if you are a hebrew in 1200 bc following some nut in the middle of the desert for 40 years
Just a challenging of both the infallability of the bible and it's use as a moral code.
its good, but most people who believe in the innerrentness and infallability of the bible, don't read it they just parrot others
it will be interesting to see what innerrentists do to handwave this away since, if this was written by god it wouldn't need three versions!

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 6 of 18 (343232)
08-25-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atreides
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


And the funniest part of this is that the Exodus 34 version is the one that made it onto stone tablets that the Israelites carried around with them. But our modern fundamentalist Judge Moore and his ilk don't ever seem to want to memorialize "thou shalt not seethe a kid...." on big rocks in courthouses....

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 7 of 18 (343233)
08-25-2006 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atreides
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


There are actually 613 commandments in the torah. Many are inapplicable in todays environement, since they are specifically for behavior in the temple, which no longer exists.

This message is a reply to:
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Atreides
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 18 (343254)
08-25-2006 9:45 AM


Yeah actually almost all of Exodus and Leviticus are commandments, they just aren't THE Ten Commandments. I do wonder how people who belive in the infallability of the bible can explain this. I've also heard that the Exodus 34 commandments came first, and i think it makes sense, because they are more primitive and geared more towards feasts and sacrifices, which is what the Jews would have been focused on to give god praise for leading them out of Egypt. If this is true, then it may be because Exodus is a compilation of other books and older material, and Exodus 34 was made of a very early story about the ten, or an early writing. I think this also makes sense, because Deuteronomy, a later book, goes with Exodus 20. Now this makes sense to me, because the Deuteronomy commandments are a lot nicer and more friendly than Exodus 34, and THAT may have been to convince jews to stay jews. Just a thought though. Also, the ten commandments from Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20 seem to be in conflict with many other commandments and passages. Notably the one about "thou shalt not kill" well this seems to be misleading, as half of leviticus is about when you SHOULD kill people. More killing is found in Exodus:
Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto Yahweh only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Not to mention rampant war:
Deuteronomy 20:11-18
When you advance on a city to attack it, make an offer of peace. . If it does not make peace with you but offers battle, you shall besiege it, and Yahweh your God will deliver it into your hands. You shall put all its males to the sword, but you may take the women, the dependants, and the cattle for yourselves, and plunder everything else in the city. You may enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemies which Yahweh your God gives you. That is what you shall do to cities at a great distance, as opposed to those which belong to nations near at hand. In the cities of these nations whose land Yahweh your God is giving you as a patrimony, you shall not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites - as Yahweh your God commanded you, so that they may not teach you to imitate all the abominable things that they have done for their gods and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God
So the ten commandments are rather misleading, even if you do stick with one. Why could that be?

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 18 (343255)
08-25-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Atreides
08-25-2006 9:45 AM


So the ten commandments are rather misleading, even if you do stick with one. Why could that be?
Well Jesus pretty much answered that question for you when He was asked what the most important ones were.
"Love GOD and love others as you love yourself".
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2535 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 10 of 18 (343482)
08-26-2006 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
08-25-2006 9:51 AM


now if only people would follow that rule.
what's really funny, is that if every body does, then the muslims blowing themselves up don't love themselves. it's funny becuase they're dying for a cause they believe in, and surely they love their God. which makes them contradictory.
suicide man--loves god.
doesn't love those he's killing.
loves (hopefully) himself.
so if he doesn't love hs God, then he doesn't love himself, and if he doesn't love those he kills, which he doesn't, then how can he love God?
a touch confusing.
and it's more of an ironic thing, kinda of sad, but I find irony funny.
so now, killing people in the name of the God you love means you kill for a God you don't love. oops.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

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defanatic
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 18 (346363)
09-04-2006 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
08-25-2006 9:51 AM


Well Jesus pretty much answered that question for you when He was asked what the most important ones were.
"Love GOD and love others as you love yourself".
It really is as simple as that.
Is that even a commandment? And what if you have low self esteem?

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 18 (346397)
09-04-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by defanatic
09-04-2006 5:49 AM


According to Jesus they are commands, The Great Commandment and the Second Commandment.
And it has nothing to do with self-esteem, but rather self-honesty. Welcome to EvC by the way.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 18 (347464)
09-08-2006 12:56 AM


Now Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 are quite similar, so the radically differing commandments are found in Exodus 34:12-27 These have been numbered for convenience, and reveal a bible that most christians deny exist.
The First Commandment
34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exodus 20 relates the basic ten commandments as told directly to the people, not just Moses
Deuteronomy 5 is a retelling of the Exodus 20 event.
Exodus 34 doesn't say that these are "the same original ten commandments." Rather, they appear to be additional detail, such as seen in verse 21, "even during plowing season and harvest you must rest."
My basic question is that of, why are these commandments not the same, and are these any rules to live life by? Just a challenging of both the infallability of the bible and it's use as a moral code.
They aren't the same because only two are actually the "ten commandments" exodus 34 doesn't claim to be that.
Are these any rules to live life by? Of course.
Is this a challenge to the infallibility of the Bible? nope.
if this was written by god it wouldn't need three versions!
Retelling stories is apart of Jewish culture. Shouldn't be seen as weakness by God.
Notably the one about "thou shalt not kill" well this seems to be misleading, as half of leviticus is about when you SHOULD kill people.
"Thou shalt not kill", actually means "You shall not murder", which how it's translated in modern versions. Understanding Hebrew eliminates this confusion.
"Love GOD and love others as you love yourself".
It really is as simple as that.
Is that even a commandment? And what if you have low self esteem?
It literally says, " as you already love your self (because you protect, keep warm, feed and clothe your self), love others, with this same love."
Edited by Hughes, : Spelling...
Edited by Hughes, : fixed quote command

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Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 18 (347472)
09-08-2006 1:06 AM



  
Specter
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 18 (347964)
09-10-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Atreides
08-24-2006 8:56 PM


Commandments of What?
If you think about it, the third set of the 30 commandments aren't actually traditional commandments. I would rather investigate them over the other two, as this set does not talk to all of the Hebrews. I will provide evidence of this to those who IM me.
Also, the evidence supporting the relevance of the other two sets of commandments also point us to the remmebrance that Deuteronomy was not written by Moses. It indeed was published after his death, and in so studying, we see that Moses had no say as to which of his speeches, recommendations, and rituals were placed as rememebrance in this book. I also ahve a bone to pick with those who believe these "30 Commandments" are relevant today...

This message is a reply to:
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