Brian's Trinity Question

.....From Geneology thread so as not to throw that thread off topic.

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Hi Buzz,
I thought you were a practicing Christian?

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Hi Brian,
C'mon, man, do I need to tell you that all practicing Christians believe exactly the same or understand Biblical scriptures alike? I think not.

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These three entities, father son and holy ghost are all aspects of the one being. How can one part of an entity keep secrets from another part of the same entity?

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The Holy Spirit is the spirit of both the father and the son. As I've stated before in other threads, the father and the son both have proper names. The spirit does not. The father sent the son to the world via the spirit. The father did not send himself to the world. These are real existing beings located in specific places in the universe. At the present the father and the son reside in a specific place called Heaven. They are not one entity in every respect nor do they have the same function. The father is the head of the son as the man is the head of he woman according to I Corinthians 11:3. Therefore it is fitting and proper that the father might know something not revaled to the son. Paul said in I Corinthians 15:28 that after the son consumates all authority, he will be subject to the father "that God may be all and in all." As in human life, the son always is suppose to assume an honor and a respect for the father. Many Christians are also confused about how the trinity functions, so I'm not surprised that you think the way you do on this.

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Is Jesus not the Yahweh of the Old Testament?

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As I stated before, Jesus came forth from the spirit of God. Before he was born a human man, he was not a human man. He was spirit, i.e. in the Holy Spirit and existed with the father in spirit.

Thanks for the reply Buz,So you are saying that these three entities are separate beings?This is contrary to what I was taught when I was a Christian.I was under the impression that Jesus was God incarnate, hence 'The Incarnation', IOW, God in human form, was I incorrect?Brian.

There are a few other things that trouble me about your post.If I could just put my Christian hat on for a moment to comment on a few things. This is totally alien to what I believed as a Christian. God does not reside in any specific place. God is everywhere, you canot limit God by pinning him down to a specific place. So you are saying that they are the same entity in some respects, what would these be? This subordination suggests inequality, the Trinity is supposed to highlight that they are all equal, none is greater or less than another (Athanasian Creed). Is jesus the God Yahweh of the Old Testament?A yes or no will suffice.Cheers.Brian.

As Brian noted, this seems in fact heretical. For example, the Catholic position is: "Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."

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Brian quote:
There are a few other things that trouble me about your post.
If I could just put my Christian hat on for a moment to comment on a few things.

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Buz quote:
These are real existing beings located in specific places in the universe. At the present the father and the son reside in a specific place called Heaven.

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Brian:
This is totally alien to what I believed as a Christian. God does not reside in any specific place. God is everywhere, you canot limit God by pinning him down to a specific place.

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Often what Christians are taught is not what the Bible says:1. Jesus, when he taught the Lord's prayer prayed, "Our father who are in Heaven....."
2. Jesus ascended into Heaven and we are told that he sits on the right hand of the father who sits on a throne. Note that Jesus left the earth and went up to be with the father. We're talking locations here, not this metaphysical something that permeates every stone, chair, tree or building.
3. The apostle John in his visions of Revelation saw Heaven and the throne area. Around his throne were 24 "elders" and 4 "beasts".Even the Holy Spirit, that omnipresent member of the trinity does not exist everywhere. The spirit goes only where it is sent. God is aware of everything in the universe and the spirit is present in millions of places at one time. For example, he is in every one of the millions of Christians who've been born of the Holy Spirit. We become the "temple" or dwelling place of the spirit of God. This's not easy to understand or fathom. It is greater than the human mind can comprehend, but we do have these givens in scripture that we can go by in understanding much about the trinity.After all, a being so great as to be able to create everything has to be some awsome being!! How could itty bitty humankind ever comprehend one so great or a spirit of the one so great as to be able to actually do the creating, etc. It's all very mind bogling.

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Buz:
They are not one entity in every respect nor do they have the same function.

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So you are saying that they are the same entity in some respects, what would these be?

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As I said, the father and the son are of one spirit, the Holy Spirit. He is what makes them one in purpose and thought. This is why we, when we become born of that same spirit, are suppose to become "spiritually minded" and "new creatures" in Christ Jesus by receiving the spirit of Jesus i.e. receiving Jesus as lord and saviour. This is why Paul said to the effect that the natural mind cannot comprehend the things of the spirit because the natural man is carnally or worldly minded.

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This subordination suggests inequality, the Trinity is supposed to highlight that they are all equal, none is greater or less than another (Athanasian Creed).

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Brian, In my opening post I explained all this. I documented scripture where the apostle Paul said the father is head of the son. Do you know what that means? It means what Jesus himself said in the other documented quote of his which I cited. He said, "my father is greater than I" This, again is a qualified statement. It simply means in the "chain of command" the father gives the orders and the son does the will of the father. Yes, Jesus is worthy of worship as is the father and in that sense he is "equal" to the father. He received worship while on earth on occasion. That was not allowed with angels or other created beings.

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Is jesus the God Yahweh of the Old Testament?

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A yes or no will suffice.

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He's the son of God/Yahweh of the OT, incarnated by the Holy Spirit of God/Yahweh of the OT making him divine. To us earthly beings, he is also KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and equal to the father in greatness, though he does not perform the same function for us as the father. For example, we are taught by Jesus himself to pray to the father. He is our high priest/mediator between us and the father to whom we pray. That's why we pray correctly "in Jesus's name." The Holy Spirit directs our prayers. That's his function in prayer.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-19-2003]

Are you then saying that the trinity/egg/cloverleaf as a concept is wrong? Is Christianity truly a polytheistic religion?Not trying to be facetious or anything, I really want to understand what you yourself believe. It "seems" that you are saying that F/S/HS are separate entities or at least F/S are separate. Is it "one" devine being or "two" or "three"?------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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As Brian noted, this seems in fact heretical. For example, the Catholic position is: "Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."

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This's a falacy nearly all Christians are caught up in, this falacy that the trinity is made up of three persons. Where in the Bible is this taught? It's nowhere to be found in scripture. There's only one person of the trinity by definition, and that's the son, Jesus, the man/person. The father and the Holy Spirit are just that, spirit. Imo, where this falacy arose is that old popular hymn, Holy, Holy, Holy, a hymn which nearly all Christianity sings. In that hymn is the phrase, "God in three persons." It seems this hymn has been sung so long and in so much of Chritianity that in the minds of Christians it's become scripture. The Bible says God is a spirit and they who worship him should worship him in spirit and in truth. Yes, they're all omnipotent, but not all alike, nor do all have the same function/purpose.Do we go by what this or what that human organization teaches, or do we go by what the Biblical text itself teaches. As a Biblical fundie, I prefer to go by THEEEEEEE BOOK, ITSELF.

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Are you then saying that the trinity/egg/cloverleaf as a concept is wrong? Is Christianity truly a polytheistic religion?

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No, Christianity is monotheistic. Note that the apostles in nearly all of the opening statements of the epistles referred to the father as "God" and Jesus as "Lord." You would often read something close to this phrase in their opening statements, "from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jesus himself referred often to his father being "God." He assumes the role as "lord/master" (of men) or as son of God, his father.

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Not trying to be facetious or anything, I really want to understand what you yourself believe. It "seems" that you are saying that F/S/HS are separate entities or at least F/S are separate. Is it "one" devine being or "two" or "three"?

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Asgara, again, I'm saying the scriptures clearly teach that the three members of the trinity have three different functions. The father is head of the trinity and the one referred to as "God." Jesus is referred to by himself and the apostles as the son of God. The spirit is the Holy Spirit of the father and the son. The spirit has no proper name. The spirit is not a person as Jesus was a person. The spirit is that mysterious powerful being/entity which both the father and the son posess and which/whom can be sent by either the father or the son to do what they wish at any time. The Holy Spirit NEVER draws attention to itself/himself. The spirit always glorifies the father and/or the son and draws mankind to the father and/or to the son.

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Asgara, again, I'm saying the scriptures clearly teach that the three members of the trinity have three different functions. The father is head of the trinity and the one referred to as "God." Jesus is referred to by himself and the apostles as the son of God. The spirit is the Holy Spirit of the father and the son. The spirit has no proper name. The spirit is not a person as Jesus was a person. The spirit is that mysterious powerful being/entity which both the father and the son posess and which/whom can be sent by either the father or the son to do what they wish at any time. The Holy Spirit NEVER draws attention to itself/himself. The spirit always glorifies the father and/or the son and draws mankind to the father and/or to the son.

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Sounds like you're describing multiple beings to me.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Thats exactly what I thought Rei. Buz talks about different entities but says Christianity is monotheistic. Am I wrong in thinking that if you believe in multiple divine beings/entities and pray to each then that is polytheism? Sounds rather like Hinduism. ------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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"Sounds like you're describing multiple beings to me."

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Ever see Sybil?

Hi Buz, How can you reconcile your opinion with Psalm 137:7-12? Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me, even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you (Psalm 137:7-12). Or even Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, he is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. Joshua 2:1 When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above and on earth beneath (Joshua 2:11). Jeremiah 23:23-24 is pretty clear: ‘Am I a God near at hand,’ says the Lord, ‘and not a God afar off? Can anyone hide himself in secret places, so I shall not see him?’ . . . ‘do I not fill heaven and earth?’ says the Lord?
A basic characteristic of God is that he is omnipresent. I think that you are totally at odds with what I would say is a basic Christian teaching. I am not saying that you are wrong as the Bible’s ambiguity is one of its attractions, I am just surprised at your take on this. The locations that you are talking about are purely metaphysical, what is heaven if it isn't metaphysical, what is the HS if it isn't beyond the physical? I really think you need to qualify this, where can the HS not exist? You are again contradicting basic Trinitarian teachings, if any of the three entities is ‘sent’ anywhere it then puts that entity on a lesser level, on a subordinate footing with the other one or two entities, you are essentially anti-trinitarian. Millions of places at one time? So how can it not be everywhere at the same time? You are again placing limits on God. I really think your take on the Trinity is not to be found in scripture, but feel free to keep believing this, you are entitled to your interpretation. The truly awesome thing about all this is that some people actually think that this is true, honestly they really do. You do know that Arius was excommunicated and exiled for exactly the same things that you claim here? Ok, so he is the Son of God, the son is always subordinate to the father, you implied this yourself, so again you are showing anti-Trinitarian traits.Your whole viewpoint on this is basically Arianism, good luck at Judgement Day that’s all I can say!Thank you for taking the time to reply.Brian.

Hi Brian. Thanks for your patience.How can you reconcile your opinion with Psalm 137:7-12?Where can I go from your Spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there; if I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, ?Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,? even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you (Psalm 137:7-12).Note that this text does not say the Spirit is in all these places at all times. The question is asked, "Where can I go to flee..." Then this statement, "If I go....." here or there, "you are there." These are qualified statements for the Spirit necessarily being in these places, the qualification being, if I go.

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Or even Deuteronomy 4:39

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Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, he is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

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As I have stated previously, the Holy Spirit is that omnipresent member of the trinity which occupies many locations in the Universe simultaneously. He is often spoken of as referring to either the father or the son, depending on the context. Why? Because he is the spirit of both the father and the son.

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The locations that you are talking about are purely metaphysical, what is heaven if it isn't metaphysical, what is the HS if it isn't beyond the physical?

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The apostle Paul said he was once caught up into the third heaven There is the atmosphere heaven, the space heavens and the specific abode of God where Biblical descriptions have designated as a specific place, such as in Revelation chapter 4. I believe that is the "third heaven." Yes, the Holy Spirit is, in a sense a metaphysical being, but nevertheless does occupy specific locations, such as in the bodies of spirit born believers. Not so with the heavens all of which occupy their respective permanent locations. [quote] You are again contradicting basic Trinitarian teachings, if any of the three entities is ?sent? anywhere it then puts that entity on a lesser level, on a subordinate footing with the other one or two entities, you are essentially anti-trinitarian.[quote] Consider the following:
1. John 3:17: "For God sent not his son into the world to judge the world, but the that the world might be saved through him."2. And as I've already mentioned: Psalms 104:30 "He (Jehovah) sends forth his Spirt; they are created."There are scores of other similar texts to support this. Jesus made it clear, often during his earthly ministry, that he came to do the will of the Father.I've already cited Biblical documentation that the members of the trinity are not equal in every sense. You seem to be disregarding this in your statements.There's no reason for the HS to be in a stone or a pile of dung now is there? That's why the Bible designates and specifies certain locations where the HS is present. Otherwise, why should the writers bother to say the bodies of the believers become the temples of God?

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I really think your take on the Trinity is not to be found in scripture, but feel free to keep believing this, you are entitled to your interpretation.

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Well, Brian, all I can say is I've documented my statements with scripture. I don't know how much better a source for formulating one's personal Biblical doctrines, being the Biblical fundie that I am. Have a good day.

The following is a little song poem I titled THE TRINITY WAY which came to me as I was driving down the freeway in my van a few years ago, meditating on the subject of the trinity. As I drove I wrote it on a box near me in the van with a marker at hand. This pretty much sums up my understanding of the trinity as set forth in the Biblical scriptures.THE TRINITY WAY
God is our father, to whom we should pray,
Jesus, God's son, is our Lord and the way.The Spirit was given from God in his love,
to give us new life, and be born from above.God is the father; Jesus the Son.
The Spirit of them is what makes them one.God sent the Saviour to die on the tree;
To pay for our sins and redeem you and me.So believe in Christ Jesus. Yield to him all.
Your soul he will save as on him you call.Buz(Note: I revised the third paragraph to it's present wording after initially writing the song poem.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-21-2003]

Hi Buz You are still missing the point, and you are limiting God in your anti-biblical belief. The point of the passage is that God is everywhere, it doesn’t matter where you go He is there. Put it this way, if you go to Miami and God is there, is it possible for me to go to Glasgow at the same that you are in Miami and God cannot be in Glasgow?The statements do no say that God is only present when someone is there, and absent when they aren’t, it claims that it doesn’t matter where you run to God is there, just ask Jonah who thought he could escape from God. You have NEVER stated until now that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, this is the first time you have stated this. You have said it is present in millions of places at the same time, this is not omnipresence though. Omnipresence means ‘Present everywhere simultaneously.’ To say that the HS is ONLY present in millions of places is anti-Christian. The Holy Spirit is NOTHING but metaphysical, can I touch the HS can I take it and show it to someone else, does it have substance, can we cut a piece off it? I am perfectly happy that you believe that these verses promote inequality between the three beings, because this is contrary to nearly 1700 years of Christian teaching! Maybe there is hope for you yet. Well I never claimed this anyway, I actually do not see any reason for a Holy Spirit at all. But the Bible doesn’t limit the HS to ONLY these places. As a fundy it must be a big surprise to learn that you agree with the heretic Arius AND you contradict 1700 years of Christian thought.
Look at the verse that Arius used to support his beliefs :Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. And your favourite one: You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. These are three verse that Arius used to deny the Trinity, he was booted out of the Church and exiled, maybe you would be well advised not to let anyone else know your stance on the Trinity, I doubt that you will find much support among the true Christians. Here is a link that goes into more detail.From this page: ‘Different schools of thought were developed by the 4th century. In Antioch, literal interpretation of Scripture was emphasized, putting the writings in a historical context. Arius, a native Libyan, went to school in Antioch. He argued that the Father alone is true God, and Jesus was not God. Since Jesus was created by God, there would be a time when Jesus did not exist and Arius used Proverbs 8:22 and John 14:28 (the Father is greater than I) as his proof text.’ It is a pity you weren’t around 1600 + years ago, Arius could have done with you on his side.Although I really couldn’t care that your interpretation of the Trinity is heretical, I am enjoying your take on it, I am surprised that a ‘fundy’ is so anti-biblical.I am going to stick my neck out here Buz and guess that you are not a regular member of a Church, as in a member of a congregation of a denomination that meets in a building.I think that maybe you should find a church near you and go and discuss your take on the Trinity with a minister or some kind of qualified church leader.Brian.