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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
windwip
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 302 (28890)
01-12-2003 12:21 AM


The idea of the great flood in which Noah saves every animal is quite farfetched to me. I have heard little evidence to support a flood of that magnitude and the situation where water covers the entire planet seems almost impossible. Is there even enough ice and water on the planet to cover the major landmasses?

I've read reports that say there are around eight million species of animals that live on land and there is a large number of species which will only survive in fresh water. At the time Noah made his arc (I don't know the date, it would be nice if someone could inform me), the technology in shipbuilding was not near what it is today, but even if he was able to create a ship which could carry a load equal to todays ships he would need to have food for each of the few million animals and cages and water and habitats for each. The largest wooden ships today, I'm guessing, can not hold even 300,000 lbs. The animals themselves (16,000,000 which is an extremely low estimate) are primarily composed of insects, but there is a large portion of animals that weigh enough to make it an incredible weight. One african elephant can weigh up to 8 tons.
One last thought: if one of any of these 16 million animals died, the species would be extinct today. The estimate of twenty percent of the animals dying is not unreasonable if we look at the death rates of people being transported during the expantion to the new world since the rates of death for the species are twice that of the animal itself. Therefore the number of animals on Noah's arc would have to be much higher than I originally stated.


Replies to this message:
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thousands_not_billions
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 302 (29034)
01-13-2003 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by windwip
01-12-2003 12:21 AM


No, Noah's flood makes perfect sense. There is enough ice locked up in the polar regions to cover the earth. The planet is around 70% water right now. And they think that the ice sheets are several miles deep.

The date of Noah's flood was about 2000 BC. That is a rough date. We believe that the earth was created 6000 years ago (around 4000BC) and that the flood occured 2000 years later. A link to your questions about the number of animals are here
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/Magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 3 of 302 (29039)
01-13-2003 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by thousands_not_billions
01-13-2003 9:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by thousands_not_billions:
No, Noah's flood makes perfect sense. There is enough ice locked up in the polar regions to cover the earth. The planet is around 70% water right now. And they think that the ice sheets are several miles deep.

Purest grade-A boloney! 71% of the Earth's surface is, indeed, covered with water. The thickness of ice on Greenland and Antarctica is not "thought", but known, to range up to a little over two miles. If every bit of that ice melted, it would raise the oceans by about 250 feet: enough to get Florida, yes, but hardly to cover the Earth. That melting has happened a couple of times in the last 500 million years, too: the coral reefs 7000 feet below my house were formed in the shallow sea that those waters made in the Permian.

The ice sheets at the poles also have seasonal layers that date the ice, with no seawater interruptions, to 130,000 years ago. Individual layers are visible to the naked eye back 15,000 years, and record the ashfall from the eruption of Vesuvius in 69 AD - at 1,934 layers ago.

[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 01-13-2003]


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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 302 (29056)
01-13-2003 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by windwip
01-12-2003 12:21 AM


The Earth could have been covered by the ocean prior to the major mountain uplifts. In the Biblical creationist scenario we believe the mountain building (as it is called mainstream) and continental drift occurred during the flood. Hence at some point of the flood year there could have been a 100% covering.

Mainstream science has discovered unambiguous evidence of an 80%+ covering during the Cretceous stage (of the flood, as we would say). This estimate is a minimum number because where did the sediment for the next layering above the Cretaceous come from? The highlands of course, eroding away the evidecne of a more complete coverage. So there may be an incomplete record of marine coverage because it has been partly eroded away. In fact it has to be the case that the 80% estimate is a minimum. The last parts of the Earth to be covered (the mountains of that time) would only have recieved a sprinkling. There is absolutely no problem in getting the existing water to cover the entire Earth of that time.

Mainstream the largest sea-level changes are explained as due to the tectonic movements that occurred suring continetnal drift and 'sea-floor spreading'. Glacial formation/melting results in lower sea-level changes. So for creaitonists we are left having to explain how to get rapid tectonic effects. We believe that radiodecay was accelerated releasing a lot of heat and sending the continental and sea-floor plates into a runaway state. this has been simulated on computer by a mainstream expert who also happens to believe the flood was a recent event. This runaway effect can yield plate velocities sufficent to generate the observed break-up of Pangea over a matter of years.

We believe that mainstream geology has misread the rocks because it ignored the declaration of Scripture. The geological-column was generated during the catastrophic Genesis Flood, not over eons of time in this scenario.

PS: there are only 2400 Linnean families of land animals that would have been on Noahs ark. Creationists believe that post-flood speciation these 2400 land families or kinds generated the tens of thousands of land species.

[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 01-13-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 5 of 302 (29058)
01-13-2003 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
01-13-2003 10:53 PM


Indeed, I have not found the horizon to be at any other; level, even though NY Ithaca is all a single ROUND MOUNTAIN NJ or the Sourland Mnts etc into PENN...
This message is a reply to:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 302 (29075)
01-14-2003 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
01-13-2003 10:53 PM


TB, how can you sit there and write that stuff with a straight face? You postulate scenarios which have been debunked time and time again.

Accelerated radioactive decay? Enough heat to drive runaway subduction and boil all of the oceans dry. But you conveniently omit this little detail in your storytelling, despite the fact that it has been presented to you repeatedly. And if your fantasised accelerated radioactive decay made some rocks appear to be 4 billion years old, why don't all rocks appear this age?

Out of curiousity, how does your flood fantasy cope with the Great Dividing Range in Australia? There isn't enough ice to melt and cover them. They are not associated with any active tectonic plate collisions. So, how were they covered and subsequently uplifted? In your answer, please also maintain consistency with the postflood migration of the 18 pairs of marsupial and monotreme ancestors directly to Australasia without leaving any evidence of their journey from the middle east.


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vangogh
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 302 (29087)
01-14-2003 8:09 AM


I, in no way, can write as eloquent as the ones that have posted in the past, but I will throw in my two cents worth any way.

Bear in mind that I do not have a science degree nor am I a scientist. I am just someone who believes the word of God.

Many people have wondered and speculated over the issue of the extinction of the dinosaurs. Today there are many dig sites around the world, and if you go to any one of these sites and ask any of the archeologists how the dinosaurs died out, they will tell you, without flinching, that they all died from drowning. These are not Christian scientist, mind you, but secular.

The Bible states in Genesis 7:10-12; vs.10- And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. vs11- In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of Heaven were opened. vs. 12- and the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

I once heard it explained; that when the floods of the deep opened up is when the splitting of the continents happened, and that is why all mountain ranges run north to south and not east and west.

Also, They have found fish at the top of some mountain ranges in the Asian territories. The only way that these fish could have made it up there is that at one point or another the tops were covered with water. Also, the Grand Canyon for many years was believed to have been carved out by the Colorado river, when in fact, secular, not Christian, scientists say that could never had happened. The Grand Canyon was produced by a massive retraction of water, The Flood.

Take this with a grain of salt if you will. But sometimes all it takes is a little faith.

[This message has been edited by vangogh, 01-14-2003]


Replies to this message:
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John
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 302 (29098)
01-14-2003 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by vangogh
01-14-2003 8:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by vangogh:
Today there are many dig sites around the world, and if you go to any one of these sites and ask any of the archeologists how the dinosaurs died out, they will tell you, without flinching, that they all died from drowning.

You cannot tell from bone remains that an animal died of drowning. Sorry to burst your bubble. There may be specific cases where this can be deduced, but it ain't the norm.

quote:
These are not Christian scientist, mind you, but secular.

Who are they? I assume you have names and can site papers to this effect? Otherwise, you are just making stuff up.

quote:
I once heard it explained; that when the floods of the deep opened up is when the splitting of the continents happened, and that is why all mountain ranges run north to south and not east and west.

Have a look at Asia. Do these ranges look predominately North/South to you?

http://www.mtnforum.org/resources/atlas/mtwrldaspa.htm

quote:
They have found fish at the top of some mountain ranges in the Asian territories. The only way that these fish could have made it up there is that at one point or another the tops were covered with water.

Sorry, but no. Plate movement can push the continental crust upwards. I live on top of just such a formation.

quote:
Also, the Grand Canyon for many years was believed to have been carved out by the Colorado river, when in fact, secular, not Christian, scientists say that could never had happened. The Grand Canyon was produced by a massive retraction of water, The Flood.

Your facts are very wrong. Who are these secular scientists? Do you have names? Can you cite papers?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by vangogh, posted 01-14-2003 8:09 AM vangogh has not yet responded

Karl
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 302 (29101)
01-14-2003 11:28 AM


quote:
Many people have wondered and speculated over the issue of the extinction of the dinosaurs. Today there are many dig sites around the world, and if you go to any one of these sites and ask any of the archeologists how the dinosaurs died out, they will tell you, without flinching, that they all died from drowning. These are not Christian scientist, mind you, but secular.

Quite often you can say that these particular dinosaurs died of drowning, but that's not the same as saying the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by drowning. I think you will find near unanimous agreement that a meteorite strike was to blame, perhaps in league with massive volcanic eruptions in India, IIRC.

Your are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.


vangogh
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 302 (29107)
01-14-2003 12:11 PM


www.jude3.com
Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 11 of 302 (29111)
01-14-2003 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by vangogh
01-14-2003 12:11 PM


vangogh, did you have a purpose in posting that particular link?
This message is a reply to:
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vangogh
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 302 (29120)
01-14-2003 3:56 PM


yes there is.....this site belongs to a Dr. Ron Carlson. One of the leading scientist that can explain creation and the flood theory, alot better than I. He speaks across the globe on this issue at major universities and conferences. There is a link to the Evolution vs. Creationism section. It is well worth the read.
Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 13 of 302 (29124)
01-14-2003 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by vangogh
01-14-2003 3:56 PM


The only such links I've found there are to an audio file and to tapes/books for purchase. I'm not too keen on either.
Carlson's biography lists his academic background as being divinity degrees from seminaries. What sort of scientist is he?
This message is a reply to:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 302 (29125)
01-14-2003 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by vangogh
01-14-2003 3:56 PM


Vincent - perhaps you could post what you consider to be Carlson's best argument against evolution, in your own words?

PE


This message is a reply to:
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Believer
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 302 (29139)
01-14-2003 8:30 PM


Quote
______________________________________________________________________
Origionaly posted by coragyps
Purest grade-A boloney! 71% of the Earth's surface is, indeed, covered with water. The thickness of ice on Greenland and Antarctica is not "thought", but known, to range up to a little over two miles. If every bit of that ice melted, it would raise the oceans by about 250 feet: enough to get Florida, yes, but hardly to cover the Earth
______________________________________________________________________

Thats true. The theory that the water needed to flood the whole world is held in the icecaps is incorrect. Instead, along with other scientist, Dr. Donald Chittick's believes there is another explination. The folllowing explination is the most widely accepted creationist view of how the flood occured.

The theory is that before the flood the earth was flatter, there was a lot more moisture in the atmosphere, and most of the water that we see today in the oceans was ground water. Then the atmosphere emptied most of its water to the Earth through a period of forty days and nights, and the ground water became surface water erupting from ground springs (most of the water needed to flood the Earth came from the ground water, because if it came from the sky the sun wouldn't be able to shine through before the flood). Then the mountains rose and the valleys sunk and dry land appeareed. Thats my dumbed down version. www.answeresingenesis.org provides a lot of info on this sort of stuff. I have copied parts of an article from that site to give a more scientific approach to this theory.

"New continental landmasses bearing new mountain chains of folded rock strata were uplifted from below the globe-encircling waters that had eroded and leveled the pre-Flood topography, while large deep ocean basin were formed to receive and accommodate the Flood waters that then drained off the emerging continents. That is why the oceans are so deep, and why there are folded mountain ranges. Indeed, if the entire earths surface were levelled by smoothing out the topography of not only the land surface but also the rock surface on the ocean floor, the waters of the ocean would cover the earths surface to a depth of 1.7 miles (2.7 kilometers). We need to remember that nearly 70 percent of the earths surface is still covered by water. Quite clearly, then, the waters of Noahs Flood are in todays ocean basins.

A Mechanism?
The catastrophic plate tectonics model gives a mechanism for the deepening of the oceans and the rising of mountains at the end of the flood.

As the new ocean floors cooled, they would have become denser and sunk, allowing water to flow off the continents. Movement of the water off the continents and into the oceans would have weighed down the ocean floor and lightened the continents, resulting in the further sinking of the ocean floor, as well as upward movement of the continents.[2] The deepening of the ocean basins and the rising of the continents would have resulted in more water running off the land.

The collision of the tectonic plates would have pushed up mountain ranges also, especially toward the end of the flood.

This uplift of the new continental landmasses from under the Flood waters would have meant that, as the mountains rose and the valleys sank, the waters would have rapidly drained off the newly emerging land surfaces. The collapse of natural dams holding back the flood waters on the land would also have caused catastrophic flooding. Such rapid movement of large volumes of water would have caused extensive erosion and shaped the basic features of today's earth surface.

Thus, it is not hard to envisage the rapid carving of the landscape features that we see on the earth today, including places such as the Grand Canyon of the United States.

The erosion caused by receding flood waters is the reason that river valleys are far larger than the rivers now flowing in them could have carved. The water flow that carved the river valleys must have been far greater than the volume of water we see flowing in the rivers today. This is consistent with voluminous flood waters draining off the emerging land surfaces at the close of Noahs flood, and flowing into the rapidly sinking, newly prepared, deep ocean basins."

(Dr. Chittick earned his Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry from Oregon State University. He served as chairman of the division of Natural Sciences at George Fox University in Oregon. Since 1988, he has been an adjunct professor of chemistry at the Institute for Creation Research in the San Diego area. University. He was Associate Professor of Chemistry at the University of Puget Sound and Professor and Head of Natural Sciences at George Fox College.

B.S., Willamette University, Salem, OR, 1954 Ph.D.
Oregon State University, Corvalis, OR, 1960 )


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