Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

PaulK has bumped forth this Lebanon propecy thread as an example of one of my old citings of Biblical prophecy which I have layed claim to being in the process of fulfillment in our times. Since as I stated, Lebanon is just one of the end time prophesied nations of the Middle East I think it best to open a new thread inclusive of all the players in the end times relative to Israel and the Mideastern nations of the region.This thread will focus mostly on the prophecies of Ezekiel but most likely will involve cross references to other prophets covering the events of these prophecies as the thread progresses. That is necessary in order to corroborate the evidence of the relevance of these prophecies to modern era fulfillment.Please understand that this thread is not to be focused on the nation of Lebanon, Lebanon being just one of the nations cited in the prophecy of Ezekiel. I've cited PaulK's message to note that this thread will be in lieu of a response to that message.The remarkable prophecies of Ezekiel beginning at around chapters 15 or so prophesy how Jehovah will punish Israel for allowing paganism to corrupt their monotheistic orthodoxy of devotion to Jehovah and his precepts. This he does via pagan nations which he allows to punish his people, Israel and Judah. Then he goes on to prophesy how after his people have been soundly punished and scattered into all nations he will go after those nations which have laid claim to the land of Israel and Judah which leads up to the restoration of the land, the regathering of his people to his land which we call Palestine and Israel etc.This will all involve wars between Israel and her neighboring nations who lay claim to the land. It will culminate finally in Ezekiel 38 and 39 with Armageddon when the nations surrounding Israel along with other nations of the world body, including North African nations which will attempt a Desert Storm kind of invasion. This is what is known as Armageddon. The invasion will commence with the invading nations enjoying some success when the 2nd advent of Messiah comes to effect the destruction of these nations as they begin to turn on one another (as Muslims do) and destroy one another. The nations of the East cross the Euphrates (dried up) at this time and get into the fracas.Chapter 39 states that the hills will be literally covered with dead bodies and weapons which all will take months and even years to clean up. The nations of the world are destroyed and as this corroborates with other related prophecies, the Times Of The Gentiles ends for the land of Israel and the old Davidic kingdom becomes that of Messiah Jesus who will rule and reign the planet rom Mount Zion, the Temple Mount at Jerusalem.The first nation Jehovah condemns is his own people Israel who have departed from his laws and followed false gods and doctrines This covers a number of chapters up to about chapter 25. There he begins prophesying against Ammon, Moab, Edom, all in the region of what we now call the Palestinians as well as the land of the Philistines which we now know as Gaza. These all are cited by the prophet Ezekiel for destruction because of their chiding with the nation of Israel. We witness the fulfillment of these prophecies as Israel finds it necessary to continually pound away at their cities etc as was the case in the recent Lebanese war and more recently in Gaza.Actually the more signifant prophecy of Lebanon is in Ezekiel 26 through 28 where Tyre and Sidon are cited for destruction for their role against Israel. Tyre and Sidon refer to modern Lebanon.Then in chapter 29 Egypt is cited. During the 1967 war we saw on TV and in Life Magazine, etc all the Egyptian army and air force pretty much wiped out by Israel. Today Egypt flourishes to some extent but as time goes on we will likely see things flair up again as Egypt sides with Israel's other enemy nations for her destruction and demise.Egypt is covered up to about chapter 33 where Jehovah turns to his people and his land. He rejects the shepards, i.e religious leaders of Israel who have become corrupt and seeks out his people in the lands to which they have scattered. He works to effect their change of heart and desire to return to their land.Chapter 35 becomes significant to today's events where Seir/Edom is addressed just before we come to the direct messianic restoration of the land and the regathering of the people to it. In this chapter Edom which is essentially the people we know as Palestinians. Note that in 35:10 these people, Israel's neighbors to the East lay claim to two nations, saying "these two countries shall be mine and we will possess it; whereas Jehovah was there! In other words, The Palestinians, followers of the Muslim god Allah are saying whereas Jehovah was there, we shall move in with our god Allah to possess Jehovah's land!Jehovah's response: After this chapter 36 prophesies messianic pronouncements upon the mountains and land of Israel that it will begin again to blossom and produce after nearly 2 milleniums of desolation. Chapter 37 prophesied the regathering of the people to the land. Chapter 38 prophesies gathering of world body nations into the Middle East as we see prevailing the news today. In this chapter we are given particulars of the siege, the invasions etc naming the prime participants and in 39 we see Armageddon involving the Muslim world as well of the huge involvement of Eastern nations of the Orient.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Clearly this does not address the points I raised. Indeed, it does not even acknowledge the fact that the quoted material misrepresents Ezekiel. There is no destruction of trees in Ezekiel 17.There is no serious attempt to show that the prophecies were intended to refer to the present day - rather than the end of the Babylonian Exile. The figure of "nearly two millenia" does not appear in Ezekiel 36.Ezekiel 26 is the well-known failed prophecy against Tyre. It refers to Nebuchadnezzar's attack - in the time of Ezekiel - not the modern day. Chapter 29 predicts devastation on Egypt - and also that Nebuchadnezzar will loot the land, since he failed to gain from the siege of Tyre. Why assume that these are meant to be separate and unrelated events. many centuries apart ? The more so, since the last few verses of Chapter 30 (20:26) predict a scattering of the Egyptians at the hands of the Babylonians - as is predicted in 29:12The prophecy against "Mount Seir" in chapter 35 refers to vengeance for past events. Obviously Muslims are not to blame !This reading just makes God look hopelessly incompetent. Why take revenge on modern people for the acts of nations destroyed long ago ? The more so, since whenever people are named we see ancient names. Nebuchadnezzar is supposed to defeat Tyre and Egypt. Egypt is ruled by the Pharoah. There are references to Assyria and Ammon and Moab.The only reason for assuming that any of this refers to the present day, is because it hasn't happened.

I will concede to you that the prophecies cited prior to chapter 35 related more to earlier times.However if you work back from the prophecies of chapter 39 the fact remains that all of these nations mentioned have never risen to the status that they had before their fall way back then.The prophet had no knowledge as to how much time would pass before the significance of these prophecies came into play. In our time the entire Middle East has taken front stage in world news and events with these regions of earlier prophecy playing significant roles. These nations are the ones which have led the drive to end the reinstatement of the nation of Israel to their land and have laid claim to the land which Jehovah promised to the prophesied restored kingdom of Israel.The prophecy of Edom and the region in chapter 35 is more directly relative to what is being observed in our time. This, to my knowledge, is the first time in history that these descendants of Esau and Ishmael, the Edomite/Moabic/Ammonite people who we refer to as Palestinians have laid claim to two nations which would be Edom and Israel.Note also Jehovah's response which I've cited to the Edomites/Palestinians. His response did not involve Babylon. Jehovah declare that he will make himself known to his people and in verse 5 of chapter 35 it is stated that this will be in the end time iniquity when much blood shall be shed upon Edom because Edom did not abhor bloodshed. Palestinians and others who lay claim to Israel's land have been and are continually being bombarded by Israel under Jehovah's providence with destruction and experiencing much bloodshed due to their belligerence in denying Israel the land which Jehovah has promised them. Palestinian schools have no nation of Israel on their maps and children are brainwashed into the notion that suicide mass murder is noble.In nearly all of the messianic prophecies including the latter ones of Ezekiel, Jehovah states that this regathering of Israel to their land will be permanent, indicating clearly that the fulfillment has not been historical. What we are observing in the Middle East with the nations of the world body being drawn into the region is prophecy being fulfilled in our times.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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However if you work back from the prophecies of chapter 39 the fact remains that all of these nations mentioned have never risen to the status that they had before their fall way back then.

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Which nations is that supposed to refer to ?

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The prophecy of Edom and the region in chapter 35 is more directly relative to what is being observed in our time. This, to my knowledge, is the first time in history that these descendants of Esau and Ishmael, the Edomite/Moabic/Ammonite people who we refer to as Palestinians have laid claim to two nations which would be Edom and Israel.

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There's a big problem with your claim - which you would know if you investigated the history. It didn't take me long to discover that the Edomites were conquered and absorbed into the Jewish population in the 2nd Century BC. In the 1st Century BC, one of the descendants of those Judaised Edomites became King - Herod the Great.So how can a prophecy against Edom be taken as a prophecy against modern Palestinians ? The descendants of the Edomites are more likely to be counted as Jews !

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In nearly all of the messianic prophecies including the latter ones of Ezekiel, Jehovah states that this regathering of Israel to their land will be permanent, indicating clearly that the fulfillment has not been historical.

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Or in other words, as I said:

King James:Ezekiel:38:1

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The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army”your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops”the many nations with you.

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Don't you think that you should go on a mission to the Middle-East, buzsaw, and attempt to persuade the countries of that area to return to more traditional types of arms and military transport?Your claim that the madman Ezekiel was referring to modern times looks ludicrous while troops in the area insist on defying the scriptures by using tanks, helicopters and jet airplanes in place of horses, not to mention guns, missiles, bombs and body armour in place of the swords and shields they should be using.So why not go there, find Gog the great Prince, and tell him he should be making more effort to fit in with your fantasies.

Bluejeans, two points to make in response here:1. How much specific info the prophet received in the revelation is unknown. Did he actually see visions of armies and weapons or did he receive generalized revelation about invasions which he wrote down in terms of (abe: contemporaneous) welfare.As I said before, the prophet likely had no knowledge of how much time would elapse before the prophecies were fulfilled.2. Perhaps by the time Armageddon happens horses will be the major carriers of the combatants and lethal portable weaponry. Horses can go where no tanks can go. Sophisticated lethal weaponry has become more portable than ever. The likelihood of missile launchers designed for footmen and horseback is quite conceivable. As well, the people of those nations are big into horses. Edited by Buzsaw, : Improve wording

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

At the beginning of WW2, Germany invaded Poland using tanks and planes only to meet the Polish army on horsebacks. If I remember my history correctly, the Polish army and their horses won a major victory and bombed Germany almost back to the stone age. Oh wait, it was the other way around.But seriously, I think Tal would disagree with you on this one.

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Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

Add to the other criticisms the fact that the prophecies are directed against nations for things that they have done - not things that they will do.So in your view it seems that the prophet:a) Didn't know when the offences would occur (and wrongly believed them to be in the past)b) Didn't know when the vengeance would be enacted (and wrongly believed it to be in the near future).c) Didn't know who the prophecy was against (see Message 5 above)d) Added erroneous details to the prophecy.Or perhaps the prophecy really did mean past offences (real or not), really did mean the peoples of the prophet's own time, really did mean that the vengeance was coming in the near future and the added details really are part of the prophecy.Why attribute problems with your interpretations to errors in the Bible ?

Everything he says indicates that he was referring to his own times and the near future. If he was getting generalized information, he shouldn't have put words like horse, sword and shield into the mouth of his God, should he? Or mentioned specific Princes, like Gog. Well, we can be sure that it isn't now, as there's no Prince called Gog charging around on a horse with a sword in one hand and a shield on the other. It says swords, mate, not missile launchers. Elsewhere, your favourite epileptic mentions bows and arrows. Given your capacity for self-delusion, perhaps you can fantasise around the fact that bows are missile launchers of a sort, but you'll have to stretch it to pretend to yourself that arrows are rockets!

Becasue he needs the Biblical prophesy to be true to support his theology.If any given prophesy in the Bible is rock-solid proven to be a false prophesy, it proves that the Bible is not infallible.So any unfulfilled prophesy in the Bible, regardless of how much textual evidence shows that the passage is speaking about contemporary events and not far-off future ones, must simply be unfulfilled yet.Revelations seems pretty strongly to be talking about the Roman empire, and was supposed to have happened soon after it was written? Well, the world hasn't ended yet, Jesus hasn't come again, so it must have simply not happened yet.Jesus says he's coming "soon" almost 2000 years ago? Well by golly, 2000 years is like a blink of an eye to an immortal deity!Buz needs this and every other prophesy in the Bible that wasn't fulfilled within its own pages to still potentially happen in the future. It doesn't matter how far wrong the prophesy becomes in a modern context, or that the people and nations discussed in the passage no longer exist as such (and have sometimes even been absorbed into those who are supposed to fight against them!). Buz needs the prophesy to potentially happen in the future, or all of Biblical literalism falls apart.

To be fair, isn't it possible that the prophets were given by god images of the future but they were unable to understand those images and so wrote down in terms of what they could understand?Think of it this way. Suppose in the future people exist in a form that is to us today unimaginable. If you are given a glimpse of this future, you will undoubtedly write down your own interpretation, that people will be made of pure energy or light or what have you. But the reality might be even stranger than that.Say that the prophets were given images of rockets and rocket launchers. They asked god "what the hell are those?" and god explained to them that one launches the other and the other goes off to kill people. "Oh, you mean those are bows and arrows?" they exclaimed. God, rolling his eyes, said "yes, I suppose you could look at them that way." And so, they wrote down bows and arrows.You don't even have to go too far back to get an example of people portraying the future the way they see their own present. Anyone who's seen Star Trek the Original knows this. Kirk was a sexist pig. All the women on board the Federation Flag Ship wore short miniskirts. They used a communication device that seemed several generations behind our cell phones. They even imagined that life must have evolved on other worlds in parallel with our own. There was even an episode where they found an alien world where after 6 hundred years the American Revolutionary War still went on and the American Colonists were still fighting the British for independence. Heck, even their Declaration of Independence was exactly identical to our Declaration of Independence word for word.Let's face it. People write down events of the future the way they see their own present. You can't disprove a prophecy by pointing out the prophet used the words "bows" and "arrows" instead of "rocket launchers" and "rockets". For all we know, the prophets could have seen the future but was unable to comprehend what they saw. Heck, we have people today that still can't comprehend what they see in their lifetime. In another thread I'm already having enough trouble trying to convince someone that radio waves are not some magical thing that you have faith in.

Not all prophecy has to be fulfilled. Prophecy can be an event that will happen at a future time based just on current conditions. It can be given as a warning to cause change. We tell our children don't touch the hot stove or you will get burned. If they don't touch it because they listened to us, does that make it untrue?Prophecy is certainly more complex than touching a hot stove... I'm just trying to show the purpose of it. If someone is going to get annihilated anyway, why bother telling them?These prophecies are called lamentations. A lamentation is something for them to lament, or grief, maybe reconsider their actions.

And yet that's not the way Buz is interpreting this prophesy. Biblical literalism insists that the Bible is literally true, every word. That means that when a passage says "x is going to happen," it means "x is going to happen," not "x will happen unless you change your ways." I imagine the author of the passage was simply expressing his own personal anger by saying "my god is going to kick your ass for this!" But that doesn't match up with Biblical literalism. If the Bible is literally true, it has to mean exactly what it says - which means prophesies are supposed to be fulfilled, inevitably. For that to be the case, the literalist position has to be that any unfulfilled prophesies in the Bible will still be fulfilled at some point in the future. Personally, I would think they are more expressions of the author's frustrations. He laments that he personally can't do anything to change events, but fervently believes his deity will serve out the vengeance he desires.But then, I'm not a literalist, like Buz is.

I'm not defending Buz or Biblical literalism. What I quoted from you is about the Bible being "infallible". Lets not confuse literal with infallible. The Bible can be accurate and inerrant without being completely literal, but in parts metaphor, allegory. It is true in its intent. God could very well have done what He intended, but He is a merciful God. He is not going to continue to yell "Die sucker!" while someone is lamenting. But that does not match up with the demeaner of a lamentation. I do believe that all prophecy is fulfilled in Christ, who died for our sins. He died so Tyre, Babylon, Egypt, etc. doesn't have to.