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Author Topic:   Giant People in the bible?
John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 1 of 352 (130909)
08-06-2004 1:59 AM


This post has to do with the giants mentioned in the bible specificaly.

I am aware that this subject has probably been touched on before, but I wanted to start from scratch to determine who or what is the meaning of these mysterious giant people mentioned in the OT.

"There were giants in the earth in those days" Gen. 6:4

We all know that the original hebrew word was "Nephilim" and then later translated to "giants."

The Nephilim seem to be of mythological significance, and the term is rather vague. It can be translated to tyrants, villains, and mighty men. Basicaly, the Nephilim seem to be the hybrid children who were born from the gods and the earth women - similar to Hercules of the more well known Greek mythology.

Genesis 6:4 clearly gives us evidence that the bible does have irrifutible mythological foundations.

Later on in the book of Numbers 13:33, The Israelite spies of Moses fame, report that the people of Hebron and Southern Canaan, are a people of tall stature, and the 3 sons of Anak, who are descendants of the giants (Nephilim) made them feel like locusts in comparison to these impressive people.

It is obvious that the spies were exaggerating about the height of these men, but the sons of Anak were in anycase, extremely tall and strong looking compared to them. (avg. man back then was 5ft5)

Later on in Deutoronomy there are refernces to other tall peoples, evidnetly the same people, but various mythological names are given to them from different ethnic tounges.The Emim, Rephaim, Anakim, and Zamzummim (Deut.2:10) are probably all one and the same basic ethnicity.

How big were these people?

Goliath was probably about seven feet tall according to the Dead Sea scrolls, which are the oldest record of the Book of Sam1.
Dead Sea scrolls say he was 4 cubits and a span. His armor was the same weight as described in the KJV though (125lbs).
One of Goliath's decendants mentioned in 2Sam. 21:20 had 6 fingers on each hand.

An Egyptian 5 cubits tall ( 7 ft 6) is mentioned in 1Chron. 11:23.

Og, the king of Bashan, in Syria-TransJordan, was called the last of the lineal descendants of the Rephaim people. Deut. 3:11 says that his huge Iron bedframe, or couch, was 13ft long, 6ft wide. (9 cubits x 4 cubits) Big enough for a giant to have slept on. There are modern day Basketball players that sleep in 8 and 9 foot beds, so I think it is probable Og could have been as tall as 8-9 feet max.

Some fundamentalists are adamit that people before the flood were 12 to 16 feet tall, or taller. But the bible seems to support the existence of people between 7 and 9 feet (2-3 metres) And no taller.

My conclusion is that these giant people mentioned in the OT, are very similar to the very real tribes that live in Southern Sudan and other parts of Africa, the Tutsi, Dinka, Nuer, Anuak, and Nuba people who are so tall that many of the men and women are 7 ft and beyond. These tribes often practice selective breeding, and inbreeding, to keep the genetic line of immense ancestral stature. A result is that these people have a much higher risk of developing deforimites. Six fingers (polydactyly), is a surprisingly common occurance among these people.

It isn't then of little surprise that Goliath's relatives have evidence of this mutation (polydactyly)- relevant to inbreeding.

It then seems logical that some people in old Kanaan and the vicinity of the Near-east, where very much like those in modern day Sudan, but seem to have practiced the selective breeding to a higher degree and may have been much taller than many of todays tallest Africans. But we must ask, if there exists any archaeological evidence of these tall people in Palestine and TransJordan?

Certainly if they existed, a skeleton would have been found by now?

Infact, They have. Tall skeletons were found in Jordan in the 1980's. These were, 7 foot plus.

Source: http://www.ptvproductions.ca/releasing/footsteps.html


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AdminAsgara
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Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
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Message 2 of 352 (130910)
08-06-2004 2:02 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
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Message 3 of 352 (130916)
08-06-2004 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Williams
08-06-2004 1:59 AM


Before going too far in any discussion of the Nephilim you really need to read the Book of Enoch. That's where you'll find most of the explanations.

Book of Enoch


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RAZD
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Message 4 of 352 (130981)
08-06-2004 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Williams
08-06-2004 1:59 AM


John Williams writes:

Infact, They have. Tall skeletons were found in Jordan in the 1980's. These were, 7 foot plus.

rather than a film reference how about the article in an archeological journal reporting the find (or even one in Scientific American or Discover magazines), and the name of the archeologists involved?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


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Coragyps
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From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
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Message 5 of 352 (130991)
08-06-2004 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Williams
08-06-2004 1:59 AM


It isn't then of little surprise that Goliath's relatives have evidence of this mutation (polydactyly)- relevant to inbreeding.

Inbreeding would be irrelavant - at least a couple of forms of polydactyly are mendelian dominant traits. If one parent had it, half the kids will inherit it.
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John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 6 of 352 (131068)
08-06-2004 5:35 PM


re:
Thanks for your response guys.

The film documentary is the only refernce I can make for the tall skeletons found in Jordan.

But here are a few refernces to bible dictionaries which describe tall skeletons in Palestine:

According to Unger's Bible Dictionary, "Skeletons recovered in Palestine attest the fact that men as tall as Goliath once lived in that general region" (p. 419).

The liberal Harpers Bible Dictionary (1961) p.231) mentions that "recovered skeletons prove that men as tall as Goliath lived in Palestine."

The conservative Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.709 also says, "Recovered skeletons of equal height from archaeological excavations at Gezer and other sites bear out the unusually tall stature of individuals in ancient Palestine at roughly the same period."

Infact, tall human skeletons of men 6ft-6ft4 inches tall were found and published in "The excavation of Gezer 1902 - 1905 and 1907 - 1909"

source:
{Deleted what were apparently 2 very, very, very, very long URLs, which didn't work anyway. This restores the page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}

This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-07-2004 01:43 PM


    
John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 7 of 352 (131219)
08-07-2004 12:27 AM


Ron Wyatt's discovery of giant human bones.
I was listening to Coast to Coast radio just a little while ago, and the guest was Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research. Among the things he covered, was that he mentioned that Ron found some bones of giant humans that were examined by orthopaedic surgeons, who calculated that the people who possessed the bones may have stood between 12 and 14ft tall.

A matter of fact, Ron did find an enormous human thumb bone near Mt. Ararat in Turkey, twice as long as a normal mans thmb bone:
http://www.s8int.com/giants7.html
http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/hovind_seminar/part2_images/Image49.jpg

Jim knows which bone I'm talking about.

If the thumb bone is still at the museum in Tennesse, maybe they should have it re-examined and publish the results of whether it is truly human and how old it is.

This would be the first concrete evidence of humans over 10 feet.


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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 8 of 352 (131360)
08-07-2004 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John Williams
08-07-2004 12:27 AM


Giants??
ROTFLMAO

Ron Wyatt's name again. Isn't it funny how this one guy can 'discover' more than all the professional archeologists in the world. Suspicious?

Giant thumbs - are you jokers serious? You believe such nonsense?


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 352 (131378)
08-07-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Eta_Carinae
08-07-2004 2:24 PM


Re: Giants??
----

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 08-07-2004 03:47 PM


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John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 10 of 352 (131392)
08-07-2004 6:06 PM


Giant thumbbone
I am skeptical about the giant human bones Ron found, but until anyone can prove them to be anything other than human, I can't say that they are not human.

What we need is someone in the medical profession with a trained eye, who can tell us if this looks anything like a genuine human thumb bone.
whether it is a metacarpus, Proximal Phanx, or whatever.


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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 11 of 352 (131393)
08-07-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by John Williams
08-07-2004 6:06 PM


Re: Giant thumbbone
But common sense and logic should make the claim seem shall we say unlikely (more like not a chance.)

Unicorns, fairies, giant humans - none of these has ever existed outside of fiction

Come on folks - this is Earth not Middle Earth - some things are just obviously childish nonsense!


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John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 12 of 352 (131395)
08-07-2004 6:57 PM


Re:
I agree with you that we should use our common sense to sort the fact from the obvious fake. But if we don't investigate the claim further, how will we know for sure either way?

I'm sure many mythological creatures never existed in the physical sense, but giant humans most certainly did exist. They gave rise to many myths and legends in our world long ago in my opinion. Giant is a vague term, when I mean "giant" I mean people between 2-3 meters tall. Which have been medicaly verified by science.


    
CK
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 13 of 352 (131423)
08-07-2004 8:16 PM


John - I don't think that counts in the sense of what creationists claim - in terms of giant men we are looking at 20 feet upwards.
  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 14 of 352 (131436)
08-07-2004 8:52 PM


re:
You're right. Some Creationists do believe in men 20 feet tall that lived in ancient times. Heck, I've even heard some people claiming that 36ft high giant humans existed.

Having researched the evidence of human giants for the past 5 years, I came to the realization that the bible clearly has no hard indication that men that big(20ft) existed.The bible's giants were certainly within 7-10ft. I mean, that's conceivibly within the range of human possibility. Other ancients mention giants in this range of height. Josephus mentions Ealeazer a Jew 10 feet tall, and Pliny mentions Gabbaras the Arabian at 9ft9 etc. http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/medicine/AnomaliesandCuriositiesofMedicine/chap7.html


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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 15 of 352 (131444)
08-07-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by John Williams
08-07-2004 8:52 PM


Tall individuals is one thing...
but to posit a complete race of people as "giants" is far fetched. There is no archeological evidence for such but medically seems ridiculous too.

I think, from memory, the tallest race/tribe on the planet is a tribe in Africa where adult males average 6' 1" (I also think some locations in Montenegro are around this too). Now the avergae adult male on the planet is about 5' 5" or so. The standard deviation of this population is probably only two inches or so. Thus even the 6' 1" average is probably some 4 standard deviations away. Once you get to say an average of 7' you are 10 sigma away. This is a miniscule probability.

Now this isn't an airtight technical argument but I do think it has some validity when you combine it with the lack of archeological evidence for such giants.


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