For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?

Well here goes. We actually had a sermon this Sunday, and some if it was about why we believe the bible to be the Word of God. I beleive the bible is the Word of God because of the overwhelming evidence that supports it. This evidence can be broken down into 5 categories:1. Authorship
2. Manuscripts
3. History
4. Archeology
5. ProphecyLet's take a look at prophecy that specifically applied to Jesus.I'll only list the concrete verses as opposed to the "He would come with authority into the temple" which, while I believe Jesus fulfilled, I don't think it is going be of any analytical use to you.Prophecies of the messiah and how Jesus fulfilled them.Enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Zechariah 9:9Fulfilled in Matthew 21:1-11Be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2Fulfilled in Matthew 2:1Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7 and Psalms 69:4Fulfilled in John 15: 24,25Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:8Fulfilled in Mark 6:3Be betrayed by a friend Psalms 41:9Fulfilled in Matthew 26:21-25Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver Zachariah 11:12Fulfilled in Matthew 26:15Have his price given for a potters field Zachariah 11:13Fulfilled in Matthew 27:7Be struck on the cheek Micah 5:1Fulfilled in Matthew 27:30Be spat on Isaiah 50:6Fulfilled in Matthew 36:67Be mocked Psalms 22:7-8Fulfilled in Matthew 27:31Be beaten Isaiah 50:6Fulfilled in Matthew 26:67Be thirsty during his execution Psalms 22:15Fulfilled in John 19:28Be given vinegar to quench his thirst Psalms 69:21Fulfilled in Matthew 27:34Be buried with the rich when dead Isaiah 53:9Fulfilled in Matthew 27: 57-60Evil people would pierce his hands and feet Psalms 22:16Fulfilled in Luke 23:3He would suffer execution but without the breaking of any of His bones Pslams 34:20Fulfilled in John 19:33-36Others would gamble for his clothes Psalms 22:18Fulfilled in John 19:23,24These are mostly about the death of Jesus and precise details surrounding it. There are many more prophecies which have a theological relevance, but little relevance to anyone simply looking for "evidence." Keep in mind that the individual books of the bible were written by many different people over thousands of years, yet it tells one cohesive story about the fall and redemption of man.Who wrote the bible?.You can look at this in a few different ways. You can say that the authors of the gospels or Jesus simply studied the old testament and attempted to fulfill them or write them into their story. You can say Jesus never really existed and the whole thing is either totally or partially made up. Or you can say it is all coincidence, and that people looked through the OT to find obscure passages that seemed to apply to Jesus' life and deaht. I doubt the roman soldiers were attempting to fulfill hebrew scripture about the messiah though.I think the greatest evidence is the bible itself. "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-26Indeed it has stood the test of time. We can do 1-4 if you are still interested.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I think you will find that every single 'fulfilled' prophecy you listed, apart from many being taken out of context, is a victim of circular reasoning.Using one part of a book to 'prove' another part of the same book is plain silly.For example, 'Born in Bethlehem' Micah 5:2, tell me Tal, how do you know Jesus was born in Bethlehem?Brian.

quote:

---

...the whole thing is either totally or partially made up.

---

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.

quote:

---

I think the greatest evidence is the bible itself. "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-26

---

Brian - this really sums it up - the bible is the best evidence that the claims in the bible are true.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-Aug-2005 02:08 PM

You don't look like Wolf.Brian, using one part of the book to prove another is your view and seems silly to you. So be it.I see it as a true story over hundreds of years of text from different authors that has a climax in the gospels in the form of the story of Jesus.If you don't believe Jesus existed, great.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

Charles, I'll do 1-4 if Wolf wants to, after Wolf responds to 5.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

Tal,First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your position so clearly. It is certainly true that, so long as one views the New Testament accounts as accurate history, it is very difficult to interpret many "Old Testament" verses as anything other than prophecy.But Tal, many of us do not view the New Testament accounts as accurate history but, rather, as fiction and legend written many decades after the presumed events. From our standpoint, there is nothing at all mysterious or difficult about forging a narrative to look like prophecy fulfilled.What makes this view ever more compelling is the fact that a common form of Jewish story-telling at the time (salled Midrash) can be characterized as parable using the Tanach (the Jewish scriptures) as prooftext. There is no prophecy. There is only late 1st century story-telling, and most of it is not done very well at all.This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 08-09-2005 02:10 PM

Wow...alot of people in here that aren't wolf.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

quote:

---

You don't look like Wolf.

---

And this thread does not look like it's a great debate - so I fail to see what your point to Brian is.

Then stop replying. Wolf said he was interested in seeing this information.This message has been edited by Tal, 08-09-2005 02:13 PM

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

It happens when one posts on a public message board instead of something private like, say, email. Funny, huh?

And who the fuck are you to tell me what threads I can post on?If you want a nice little chat with just the two of you - propose a great debate or take it to email. As it stands, it's fair game for all of us.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-Aug-2005 02:15 PM

Look people, it isn't that difficult. The Admins told me to start a thread because Wolf asked for some information and what I posted in his "hi there" thread was off topic.This is for Wolf, moved here by request of the Admins. Please stop spamming with drivel.

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

Showing your age or mentality? It was a suggestion, not a command. If you don't like it, why post?

---

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter