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Author Topic:   Why are there venomous snakes?
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4374 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 1 of 75 (127931)
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


If before the Fall all creatures were vegetarians why are there venomous snakes that specifically use the venom for paralysing their prey?
What was the purpose of this whilst the snakes were vegetarian?
Or was their an unbelievably rapid evolution that occurred after the Fall to produce venomous snakes?
Or is this yet another example of the inane nature of interpreting Jewish mythology to the real world?

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 75 (127944)
07-26-2004 10:57 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 3 of 75 (127945)
07-26-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eta_Carinae
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


Have a peek please
Eta, could you look into the relative motion thread? We are getting out of our depth there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-26-2004 9:15 PM Eta_Carinae has not replied

  
SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 75 (127946)
07-26-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eta_Carinae
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


Bad apples.
Snakes became venomous due to their loss of appetite for fruit and vegetables after what is now referred to by Snakes as "The Eve incident". They also stopped wearing gloves in protest.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 75 (127950)
07-26-2004 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by SRO2
07-26-2004 11:04 PM


Re: Bad apples.
Pah! Rocket's full of it, and probably a Heathen, besides. Everyone knows that snakes needed that venom to subdue the ferocious and wily Jurassic Carrot (and also Triassic Rutabagas). Have you ever seen what That Sort of vegetable can do to a hungry Vegan?
Eta, I've seen similar questions before, but I've never seen much of any answer at all from a YEC. Odd, isn't it?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 75 (127951)
07-26-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eta_Carinae
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


The Bad Apple Syndrome.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 7 of 75 (127962)
07-27-2004 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eta_Carinae
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


You're forgetting something, Eta. A lot of creationists believe that "microevolution," whatever that means, is a reality and that "macroevolution" is what they are arguing against. In this case, they would argue that a vegetarian snake gaining venom to paralyze its prey would be an example of "microevolution."
I was surprised to not see creationists try to pull this argument more often.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 75 (127989)
07-27-2004 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coragyps
07-26-2004 11:39 PM


Evilutionist Conspiracy Theory(TM)
Everyone knows that snakes needed that venom to subdue the ferocious and wily Jurassic Carrot (and also Triassic Rutabagas). Have you ever seen what That Sort of vegetable can do to a hungry Vegan?
You're lying! Everyone knows that the EVILutionists planted poison-fang genes in the snakes about 300 years ago, then changed all the history books! You can't find any source on this because even the Internet is biased against legit Creationist claims! GAAAAAAAAAH!!!
(breathes whips of fire onto everyone!!!)

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

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Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 75 (128023)
07-27-2004 7:22 AM


What a mess. Are you all became a bunch of crazy guys ?
Wear a hat when you go outside. Sun is dangerous sometimes.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 75 (128030)
07-27-2004 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by coffee_addict
07-27-2004 1:09 AM


In this case, they would argue that a vegetarian snake gaining venom to paralyze its prey would be an example of "microevolution."
well, the argument is that the BIBLE says there are venomous snakes before man is even created. we're not really arguing what really happened, or anything about evolution, we're debating what the bible says.
genesis 1:21 says "and god created great serpents"
some bibles translate this as "whale" but i have no idea why. the word is tanniyn, the same word that is used to describe what moses' staff became when he cast it on the ground in front of pharoah.
it's also the same serpent as in these verse:
quote:
Deu 32:33 Their wine [is] the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
quote:
Psa 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
quote:
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
quote:
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
etc.
it's pretty clear it's talking about either a great mythological dragon, or a venomous snake.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 75 (128056)
07-27-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eta_Carinae
07-26-2004 9:15 PM


......why are there venomous snakes that specifically use the venom for paralysing their prey?
Perhaps the Biblical answer lies in the details of the curse upon the serpents in Genesis 3: 15, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel."
The serpent was radically changed at the fall, according to the Genesis account. The clear implication is that the prefallen ones had longer legs and were walking and possibly flying creatures. Imo, the prefallen serpents were the dinosaurs whose offspring became snakes, lizzards, allegators, etc. They are all of the serpent family. Likely two not mentioned results were diminished intelligence and poisonous venom. The serpents were the most intelligent of the animal kingdom at creation according to the account. A lot happened at this catastrophy of the fall, including thorny plants and so forth. I believe some plants became poisonous as well.
I do not agree with most creationists such as ICR who believe and teach that dinosaurs were in Noah's ark. I do believe however, that the parent prefallen dinosaurs lived very long lives and many survived until the flood which would have been about 1500 years since many humans lived nearly a thousand years.

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Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 75 (128199)
07-27-2004 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
07-27-2004 11:10 AM


quote:
Imo, the prefallen serpents were the dinosaurs whose offspring became snakes, lizzards, allegators, etc. They are all of the serpent family.
According to the fossil record, dinosaurs are not the ancestors of any living reptile today. However, they are possibly the ancestors of birds, although that is still a hotly debated topic.
quote:
I do not agree with most creationists such as ICR who believe and teach that dinosaurs were in Noah's ark. I do believe however, that the parent prefallen dinosaurs lived very long lives and many survived until the flood which would have been about 1500 years since many humans lived nearly a thousand years.
Then you have abandoned a literal reading of Genesis which very emphatically states that all of the creatures that creep upon the earth were put onto the ark. If they were around, they would have been on the ark if they survived till the flood.

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 13 of 75 (128207)
07-27-2004 9:50 PM


nothing would rot
You know, according to the pre-fall logic, nothing would rot
Our digestive sistem relies on the rotting and breaking down of matter. In this process, you have to kill things. And the bacteria in you stoumach would have to die off or overpopulate and consume you!
Furthermore, fruits are alive. Just as alive as your hadn, so tearing one from a tree is essentialy killing it. Eating grass is killing it, etc.
Food for thought

Replies to this message:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 14 of 75 (128210)
07-27-2004 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Yaro
07-27-2004 9:50 PM


Re: nothing would rot
Excellent point Yaro. That was one of the first problems which biology made apparent to me. There can be no life without death.
That reminds me of another biological problem with the Genesis myth. All creatures were supposed to be fruitful and multiply and "fill the earth." I wonder what was supposed to happen once the earth became "full." Perhaps the point is moot now the plan went sour 'cause a Jew ate something wasn't Kosher. Oddly, the divine command to multiply continues to drive us mad. And no matter how often we practice to obey it, we still haven't filled the earth.

Adult Sunday School

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 75 (128211)
07-27-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Loudmouth
07-27-2004 7:56 PM


According to the fossil record, dinosaurs are not the ancestors of any living reptile today. However, they are possibly the ancestors of birds, although that is still a hotly debated topic.
You are speaking as an evolutionist. This change involves a supernatural overhaul/adjustment of the genes which science cannot account for.
Then you have abandoned a literal reading of Genesis which very emphatically states that all of the creatures that creep upon the earth were put onto the ark. If they were around, they would have been on the ark if they survived till the flood.
No I haven't and no they wouldn't have. Each of the various zapped belly crawling offspring of the parent dinosaurs would be descended from the dinosaur forbear of the variety it descended from. Nice try though.

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