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Author Topic:   Did Judas die twice?
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 1 of 11 (25101)
11-30-2002 10:23 PM


In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Brian, posted 12-01-2002 3:29 AM judge has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 2 of 11 (25112)
12-01-2002 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by judge
11-30-2002 10:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by judge:
In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Hi Judge,
If you had continued reading Acts chapter one you would have found at verses 23-25 that Judas was replaced by Matthias, which meant that there were 12 disciples again.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by judge, posted 11-30-2002 10:23 PM judge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by judge, posted 12-01-2002 4:02 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 4 by judge, posted 01-18-2003 4:54 PM Brian has replied

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 3 of 11 (25152)
12-01-2002 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Brian
12-01-2002 3:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by judge:
In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Hi Judge,
If you had continued reading Acts chapter one you would have found at verses 23-25 that Judas was replaced by Matthias, which meant that there were 12 disciples again.
Brian.

Hi Brian!
Yes I am aware Judas was replaced but the point is that 1 Corinthians 15 happens after Matthew 27 but before judas was replaced. So the "twelve" would have included Judas at that time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Brian, posted 12-01-2002 3:29 AM Brian has not replied

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 4 of 11 (29515)
01-18-2003 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Brian
12-01-2002 3:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by judge:
In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Hi Judge,
If you had continued reading Acts chapter one you would have found at verses 23-25 that Judas was replaced by Matthias, which meant that there were 12 disciples again.
Brian.

Thanks for the reply..BUT...Jesus appears to the twelve after judas "hanged himself", but brfore matthias joins the twelve.
Any more thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Brian, posted 12-01-2002 3:29 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 01-18-2003 7:56 PM judge has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 11 (29517)
01-18-2003 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by judge
01-18-2003 4:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by judge:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by judge:
In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Hi Judge,
If you had continued reading Acts chapter one you would have found at verses 23-25 that Judas was replaced by Matthias, which meant that there were 12 disciples again.
Brian.

Thanks for the reply..BUT...Jesus appears to the twelve after judas "hanged himself", but brfore matthias joins the twelve.
Any more thoughts?

Hi Judge,
Sorry that I lost track of this post.
I haven’t really thought much about this, and I now agree, on closer inspection, that Judas was alive to see the resurrected Jesus. Anyway here are a couple of ideas.
Maybe Matthias was one of the twelve when Corinthians was written, and Paul wasn’t talking about the original twelve, or possibly the reference in Matthew isn’t really a close sequence of events. Maybe it condensed the final deeds of Judas, which actually spanned several days. The reference in Matthew doesn’t actually say when Judas killed himself, just that he did. He must have died before the ascension though as Peter refers to Judas’ death in Acts 1:15-19, so maybe it is a question of when Judas died and not how many times he did?
Best wishes
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by judge, posted 01-18-2003 4:54 PM judge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by judge, posted 01-18-2003 9:01 PM Brian has not replied

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 6 of 11 (29520)
01-18-2003 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
01-18-2003 7:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by judge:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by judge:
In Matthew 27:5 we read..
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
In Acts 1:18-19 however we read..
"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"
IIn 1 corinthians 15:3-5 we are told...
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
This appearance "to the twelve" happens after Matthew 27:5.
How is this so?
Did Judas die twice?
I do not believe so. I believe the verse in matthew does not speak of Judas's death but rather that he was "choked with grief". It would be similar to someone today "hanging their head in shame".
This figurative usage of the greek word "apancho" (apanchomai) can be verified in the the writings of Aristophanes, vespae 686

Hi Judge,
If you had continued reading Acts chapter one you would have found at verses 23-25 that Judas was replaced by Matthias, which meant that there were 12 disciples again.
Brian.

Thanks for the reply..BUT...Jesus appears to the twelve after judas "hanged himself", but brfore matthias joins the twelve.
Any more thoughts?

Hi Judge,
Sorry that I lost track of this post.
I haven’t really thought much about this, and I now agree, on closer inspection, that Judas was alive to see the resurrected Jesus. Anyway here are a couple of ideas.
Maybe Matthias was one of the twelve when Corinthians was written, and Paul wasn’t talking about the original twelve, or possibly the reference in Matthew isn’t really a close sequence of events. Maybe it condensed the final deeds of Judas, which actually spanned several days. The reference in Matthew doesn’t actually say when Judas killed himself, just that he did. He must have died before the ascension though as Peter refers to Judas’ death in Acts 1:15-19, so maybe it is a question of when Judas died and not how many times he did?
Best wishes
Brian.

Oh...I don't beleive it. I am really mad now!!! :X
I have just completed not one but two replies to this only to have the wrong password (or something) and i have lost the message.And I'm only a two finger typer!!
Clearly it must be the prince of darkness himself trying to thwart me!!
Well thanks for the reply Brian. In short, i beleive that a sequence can be seen in the various accounts, but it is only there if Judas did not kill himself in Matthew. I beleive the sequence is Judas "hangs" himself then Jesus appears to the eleven in luke 24:33 but Thomas is not there (so judas must be) john 20:24.
Additional clues to tying all the scriptures together are that there are [b]two/b fields, one in Matthew and one in acts, these are different fields, And, that there are two lots of money, (the thirty pieces and the reward of Judas's iniquity which was the money he took as treasurer) The thirty pieces were thrown back and the other money was used the buy the other field.
Additionally not that the aramaic of matthew dies not mention Jeremiah in matthew 27:9 but merely says "the prophet" which explain why the wrong prophet seems to be mentioned here in the greek text.
Now I'm just going to sane (should read save..added in edit) this ..to stop satan making me have to type it all out again of course. (you understand).
All the best
[This message has been edited by judge, 01-19-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 01-18-2003 7:56 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by judge, posted 01-19-2003 2:18 AM judge has not replied

  
iconoclast2440
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 11 (29545)
01-19-2003 2:18 AM


Judge why do you keep assuming this or that? Why couldn't this be a contradiction?

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 8 of 11 (29546)
01-19-2003 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by judge
01-18-2003 9:01 PM


This is more for iconoclast who has challenged my use if the word "hanged" in Matthew chapt 27.
This is actually copied from a friend of mines explanation (Thanks Don), but since he can't be here and He is a beter writer than me I have cut and pasted it. I could go and re-write it and change a few words around...but..
"1) The word translated "hanged himself" in the KJV is apanchomai from
the Greek word apancho. It is used only once in the NT. However in
classical literature it means "to strangle" or "to choke" and is used
figuratively to mean to choke with anger or grief.
Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, rev. by
Henry S Johnes (1843; 9th ed., Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940), p.174.
The word apancho is a combination of apo, "away from," and ancho, "to
squeeze or embrace." Consequently, it carries a negative connotation,
meaning "to squeeze from." "Choking" is a literal "squeezing the life
from" whereas "choking with grief" is figurative as in our English
expression "all choked up."
2) The Expositor's Greek Testament makes note of Grotius, who saw the
difficulty with these two accounts and suggested that apancho points to
death by grief rather than a literal choking.
W.Robertson Nicoll, ed., The Expositor's Greek Testament, 5 vols.
(1897); reprint ed., Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1974), 1:323
3) This could be correct, but only to the extent that Judas did not die
immediately in Matthew 27, but was extremely greived over his betrayal.
He was carried away by grief and despair. And over a period of time
(about 40 days) he let this grief consume him until he could no longer
tolerate it. This "figurative" usage is verified in the classical writing
of Aristophanes. Aristophanes Vespae 686. It was this state of mind
that led to his actions which literally resulted in his death.
4) Various Greek manuscripts also indicate difficulties that others
have had with the word apancho by their deliberate change of the text to
more familiar words like apeuchomai which means "to wish a thing away"
(MSS 803, 875, 983, 1415, 1608, 2521, and 2539). Judas wished he had
never betrayed Jesus. This word fits with the word "repent" jused in
Matt.27:3. Judas regretted what he had done and tried to turn away from his
actions in his mind, to wish his thoughts away. One manuscript has the
word apopnigo, which is also used figuratively "to choke with vexation
or rage" (MS 273). A related word pnigalion means "nightmare." Another
manuscript uses the word apago, meaning "to lead away" (MS 827). These
variations in the text indicate misunderstanding of apancho followed by
deliberate and unwarranted attempts at clarification.
Understanding the meaning and the figurative usage of apancho in
Matthew 27:5 leaves all four Gospels without any mention of the death of
Judas. His death is then only mentioned in Acts 1, AFTER he saw Jesus
ascend. It is THEN that Peter and the others replace him. Note: Had Judas
died BEFORE Jesus' ascension, then Jesus would have replaced him.
However, Peter and the others replace him because he wasn't missing UNTIL
AFTER Jesus was gone (ie. ascended).
Having seen Jesus condemned, Judas threw the thirty pieces of silver
back into the Temple and departed, emotionally choked up with grief.
Finally, over forty days later as he watched Jesus ascend into heaven,
Judas reached the point of no return. Overwhelmed with internal turmoil, he
left the other eleven apostles and went to his own property (purchased
with money he stole from "the bag") and committed suicide. 11 men are
then all named one-by-one right after the ascension (Acts 1:13) as
having remained - only Judas is left out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by judge, posted 01-18-2003 9:01 PM judge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-19-2003 2:32 AM judge has replied

  
iconoclast2440
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 11 (29548)
01-19-2003 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by judge
01-19-2003 2:18 AM


quote:
"1) The word translated "hanged himself" in the KJV is apanchomai from
the Greek word apancho. It is used only once in the NT. However in
classical literature it means "to strangle" or "to choke" and is used
figuratively to mean to choke with anger or grief.
LOL again nothing more than a suggestion on your behalf. One the many christian works completely disagree with you on. Why are your words more believable than there without a single shread of evidence for your case?
quote:
The word apancho is a combination of apo, "away from," and ancho, "to
squeeze or embrace." Consequently, it carries a negative connotation,
meaning "to squeeze from." "Choking" is a literal "squeezing the life
from" whereas "choking with grief" is figurative as in our English
expression "all choked up."
lol. Again it is also possible here it was used literarly as bible scholars seem to think.
quote:
2) The Expositor's Greek Testament makes note of Grotius, who saw the
difficulty with these two accounts and suggested that apancho points to
death by grief rather than a literal choking.
Lol which still doesn't explain bursting open does it?
quote:
3) This could be correct, but only to the extent that Judas did not die
immediately in Matthew 27, but was extremely greived over his betrayal.
He was carried away by grief and despair. And over a period of time
(about 40 days) he let this grief consume him until he could no longer
tolerate it. This "figurative" usage is verified in the classical writing
of Aristophanes. Aristophanes Vespae 686.
You are really are trying hard aren't you?
quote:
It was this state of mind
that led to his actions which literally resulted in his death.
Of bursting open?
quote:
4) Various Greek manuscripts also indicate difficulties that others
have had with the word apancho by their deliberate change of the text to
more familiar words like apeuchomai which means "to wish a thing away"
(MSS 803, 875, 983, 1415, 1608, 2521, and 2539). Judas wished he had
never betrayed Jesus. This word fits with the word "repent" jused in
Matt.27:3. Judas regretted what he had done and tried to turn away from his
actions in his mind, to wish his thoughts away. One manuscript has the
word apopnigo, which is also used figuratively "to choke with vexation
or rage" (MS 273). A related word pnigalion means "nightmare." Another
manuscript uses the word apago, meaning "to lead away" (MS 827). These
variations in the text indicate misunderstanding of apancho followed by
deliberate and unwarranted attempts at clarification.
Just more presupposition from on behalf. Why do all these scholars disagree with you?
quote:
Understanding the meaning and the figurative usage of apancho in
Matthew 27:5 leaves all four Gospels without any mention of the death of
Judas. His death is then only mentioned in Acts 1, AFTER he saw Jesus
ascend.
OR rather your invented argument in this case. Can you please show some real evidence Judge? Honestly this is nothing more than a mere suggestion on your behalf.
Here again is why it is BS:
Acts
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Matthew:
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."[1]
What exactly is happening here Judge? Both of these are discussing a change of events which are IMPOSSIBLE by your explination.
In Matthew the preists purchaced Potter's Field after Judas died!
In Acts Judas purchased the field with the money he supposedly threw away! This isn't possible Judge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by judge, posted 01-19-2003 2:18 AM judge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by judge, posted 01-19-2003 5:34 PM iconoclast2440 has not replied

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6443 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 10 of 11 (29589)
01-19-2003 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iconoclast2440
01-19-2003 2:32 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
[B][quote]"1)
Here again is why it is BS:
Acts
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Matthew:
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
6The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."[1]
What exactly is happening here Judge? Both of these are discussing a change of events which are IMPOSSIBLE by your explination.
In Matthew the preists purchaced Potter's Field after Judas died!
In Acts Judas purchased the field with the money he supposedly threw away! This isn't possible Judge.[/B][/QUOTE]
Iconoclast, as I explained above (somehow it escaped you)
Judas did not purchse the field with the thirty pieces of silver.
He purchased it with the money he took whilst treasurer.
Secondly there are two different fields. To see this you need to go back and look behind our english translations. Can you please do this?
All the best

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-19-2003 2:32 AM iconoclast2440 has not replied

  
iconoclast2440
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 11 (29761)
01-21-2003 9:54 AM


quote:
Iconoclast, as I explained above (somehow it escaped you)
Judas did not purchse the field with the thirty pieces of silver.
He purchased it with the money he took whilst treasurer.
where on earth do you get that? It says HIS REWARD. They were refering to the money he got from betraying Jesus
quote:
Secondly there are two different fields. To see this you need to go back and look behind our english translations. Can you please do this?
Two different fields? I don't think so. Even if they were the message is still contradictory.
Please show how these are two different fields besides playing semantic games.
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
[This message has been edited by iconoclast2440, 01-21-2003]

  
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