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Author Topic:   Jesus the rabbi ?
jes
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 42 (44827)
07-02-2003 7:49 AM


A book I am reading states that Jesus is " usually addressed as "rabbi" in the gospels and then goes on to give several examples including Mark 9.5,10.51,11.21,14.45
  
jes
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 42 (44828)
07-02-2003 7:58 AM


Jesus the rabbi?
Sorry about the above I don't know what went wrong ,I'm new at this.The message SHOULD have gone on to say that in another book I'm reading it states that the term "rabbi" was not used until after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple 70C.E..Itstruck me that if JC was referred to as "rabbi'{"master"} in Mark it would add support toM ark being written post70.Anyone csre to comment?Thanks

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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by doctrbill, posted 07-02-2003 1:56 PM jes has not yet responded
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 3 of 42 (44857)
07-02-2003 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jes
07-02-2003 7:58 AM


Re: Jesus the rabbi?
Cool.

The oldest extant manuscripts are figured to been written no earlier than about 100 AD. I was aware that they were written well after the fact but was unaware of this piece of evidence.

Thanks for mentioning it.

[edited for spelling]

[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 07-02-2003]


This message is a reply to:
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The_Search
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 42 (45131)
07-05-2003 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jes
07-02-2003 7:58 AM


Re: Jesus the rabbi?
Thatís interesting, you think you could let us know what book it is that you are reading though?
This message is a reply to:
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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4280 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 5 of 42 (45137)
07-05-2003 10:31 AM


I also would be interested in the book title. According to both the Catholic Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica, the use of the term Rabbi as 'master' or 'my lord' goes back as far as Hillel. See, for example, Rabbi and Rabbinism.
  
jes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 42 (45308)
07-07-2003 1:03 PM


Jesus the rabbi?
The book that stated that JC is "usually addressed as rabbi" is "The 2 Faces of Jesus" by Paul Barnett ,Bishop of North Sydney.I can't cite publication details because the first 30 odd pages were missing.My RSV has footnotes for the text of Mark 'as above,that says "master" is "rabbi".The book that states that the term "rabbi" was first used after 70C.E. is Harper Collins Dictionary of Religion Ed.John Z Smith London 1996.The statement is made under the entry "rabbi" p.874.I am curious if ,in fact this is true.I looked up the Jewish Encyclopaedia online but couldn't find anything relevant.It strikes me that this seems similar to JC and the synagogues situation where gospel writers have him in and of buildings that ,most probably,did not exist in Palestine c.30C.E..But I welcome comment from better informed persons.Thanks.
  
jes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 42 (45315)
07-07-2003 1:38 PM


Jesus the Rabbi?
Thanks for the reference to the Catholic Enc..Like a lot of the reading I do the deeper I go the more muddy the waters get.I couldn't link to Enc.Judaica {I'll try again sometime but ,on closer inspection of the Jewish Encyclopaedia ,under "rabbi" ,it had this to say:"Shehia's[sp?]statement shows clearly that at the time of Jesus Christ there were no titles and Gratz[gesh iv 431]regards as anachronisms the title "rabbi" as given in the gospels to John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.....".previously rhe entry said that it {"rabbi"was first used of R.Gamaliel the Elder.I thimk he is c.30 isn't he?
  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4280 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 8 of 42 (45336)
07-07-2003 10:21 PM


I'll see if I can get a photocopy of the Encyclopedia Judaica this Friday. Unfortunately, I do not own a copy (although I am eyeing the CD greedily). I find the fact that it tends to support what is found in the Catholic Encyclopedia somewhat compelling.
Replies to this message:
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THEONE 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 9 of 42 (47815)
07-29-2003 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ConsequentAtheist
07-07-2003 10:21 PM


Word Rabbi has a few meanings. Most commonly it's used as a teacher. Jews call Moses - Moishe Rabbeinu which means - Moses our Teacher. Word for Master or Lord (back in the day of Christ) was Rav. So it does not surprise me that CJ was called Rabbi (teacher), that's who he was. It's just a hebrew word (and same in Aramaic too).

[This message has been edited by TheOne, 07-29-2003]


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Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 42 (56055)
09-17-2003 2:19 PM


Was Jesus a Rabbi?
It seems to me, in my new study of this topic that Jesus being called Rabbi may mean something. In asking several Rabbi's and inquiring various written works, it seems to me that Jesus, in order to be a Rabbi, he must have gone through a Rabbinical training of some sort(essene?). In order to be considered a viable and credible Rabbi or "Master", according to my sources, Jesus had to have been married. If Jesus was married, then to whom was he married to? One more question. Was Jesus' wedding in the New Testament? I believe so. Remember the "water into wine" story? Why was his mother there? Why would she, being a guest as we assume was Jesus, command Jesus to make wine? Why then is he refered to as "bridegroom"?

Food for thought.


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phil
Unregistered


Message 11 of 42 (56072)
09-17-2003 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rubten
09-17-2003 2:19 PM


Re: Was Jesus a Rabbi?
Was Jesus' wedding in the New Testament? I believe so. Remember the "water into wine" story? Why was his mother there? Why would she, being a guest as we assume was Jesus, command Jesus to make wine? Why then is he refered to as "bridegroom"?

This is just plain wrong. John 2 says:

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."

4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

9They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Why would Jesus be invited to his own wedding? Also, why would Jesus call himself aside? Jesus was NOT the bridegroom in this passage. Nothing in this passage even suggests that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rubten, posted 09-17-2003 2:19 PM Rubten has not yet responded

    
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 42 (56115)
09-17-2003 7:15 PM


Is that right?

King James Version (KJV)
John - Chapter 2
Printer Friendly Verses to Choose: KJVNLTNKJVNASBWebster'sYoung'sDarby'sASVHNVRSVVulgateHebrew (OT)Greek (NT)

Jhn 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Jhn 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Jhn 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jhn 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].

Jhn 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

Jhn 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

Jhn 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it].

Jhn 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.


  
Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 42 (56334)
09-18-2003 5:10 PM


I assume the Master of Ceremonies is the father of the bride; if tradition dictates. If Jesus was invited, as was his mother, why then would his mother worry about whether or not the wine had run out if they were just guests? At the end of the passage, the Master of Ceremonies calls Jesus the bridegroom and applaudes the fact that the good wine was given after the lesser wine had been served. Why then THANK Jesus if he is only a guest and why allude to that fact that Jesus himself is the Bridegroom?
Replies to this message:
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phil
Unregistered


Message 14 of 42 (56343)
09-18-2003 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rubten
09-18-2003 5:10 PM


I looked over the King James Version, and, at first, I was puzzled. Here is the passage in question (highlighting key parts):

Jhn 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Jhn 2:2 And both Jesus was called*, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Jhn 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jhn 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].

Jhn 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

Jhn 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

Jhn 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it].

Jhn 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and KNEW NOT WHENCE IT WAS: ( but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

Jhn 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

First, I would like to address verse 2 (in black):

In the King James Version there is a "footnote" indicating that "called" is synonymous with "invited" here. Furthermore, the same verb is used for both Jesus and his disciples, indicating that they were "called" in the same manner ("called" cannot have different meanings for both Jesus and his disciples).

Now, verse 9 (in yellow):

The verse says that the ruler of the feast tastes the water that was made into wine and did not know where it came from (he did not know of the miracle Jesus had performed). The governor of the feast figures it was the bridegroom (who is not Jesus) because it is the bridegroom's wedding, and he would have made the arrangements for it. The governor then compliments the bridegroom for having saved the best wine until the end.


This message is a reply to:
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Rubten
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 42 (56361)
09-18-2003 7:22 PM


Why would Jesus be Responsible to "make wine" if it is not his wedding? Showing charity? C'mon. Opne your mind a little. it was his wedding. He was married that day! Where was the wedding anyway? When you answer that, ask yourself where Lazarus was "believed" to have risen from the grave. Then ask yourself if Lazarus was not Mary Magdalene's brother. IF that is not far along enough, then ask yourself why Mary Magdalene is treated so well by Jesus? Why are his disciples jealous of "their" relationship? Go back and read all the passages that deal with Mary Magdalene, then use some logic and sense.
Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 09-19-2003 10:19 AM Rubten has responded
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