EvC Forum: "Most Historians said 'David didnt exist' till the Tel Dan discovery"

I couldnt even begin to tell you how many times I have head this claim (I even heard it from a fundi once even *after* I explained to him earlier that he was mistaken!)I wont take the time to link this exchange(there are literally hundreds like it all over the net).

I got attacked by a non-believer (see post #118 in link)as if I was telling a flasehood when he overheard me tell my fellow Bible-believers that their same claims were wrong.

http://EvC Forum: There is an appalling lack of historical evidence backing the Bible's veracity -->EvC Forum: There is an appalling lack of historical evidence backing the Bible's veracity

I really want this one set straight, so we can get on with making honest archaeological/historical defenses of the Bible. (I will not cover the broad range of current issues in THIS thread, as I am only narrowly focusing on the revisionist/ignorant claims made by fundi's with regards to their claimed common scholarly views of Davids supposed "non-existance" before the 1993/4 Tel dan discovery)

First, let me mention that Israel Finkelstein is one of the most hated "minimalists".I regularly get postal-mail from fundi-archaeological organizations urging me to donate to "fight Israel Finkelsteins attacks on the Bible".

Lets see what he said BEFORE the 1993 "House of David" discovery.

Archaeology Of The Israelite Settlement
Israel Finkelstein
27

An important intermediate phase of this crystallization is connected with the establishment of supratribal sacral centers during the period of the Judges.The mosy important of these centers was the one at Shiloh, whose special role at the time is elucidated in 1 Samuel-a historical work, as all agree.

I lost my other quote from the same book, but notice he says 1 Sam is historical.

Here is another Finkelstein quote.(from before the discovery at Dan)

New Archaeological Encyclopedia of excavations in the Holy Land
1993
Volume 2

Izbet Sartah

653
...Stratum II survived for a short time....Its abandonment may be associated with the Philistines' consolidation of power in their war with Saul.

Stratum I... Beginning of the tenth century BCE... The renewed occupation of the site may be attributable to a resumption of israelite expansion to the west under David.

Finkelstein was attacked in a late 1990's Bryant Wood video (The Second Great Battle of Jericho)for a 1990 book From Nomadism to Monarchy.This Finkelstein quote was made during the same period (as my above quotes) and showed that he never doubted Davids existence.

What about the most extreme minimalists from the same period?

I will quote from J Maxwell Miller's book and Gosta Ahlstroms book.

First, lets ee what the maximalists have to say about these two scholars.

First kenneth Kitchen comments on Miller

Eerdmans
2003
On The Reliability of the Old testament
K A Kitchen
482

But with minimalists, what can one expect? The Hayes/Miller book...

Then Dever has choice words about Miller and Ahlstrom

this came after reviewing Lemche's book The Israelites In history And Tradition, Dever asks in his next sentence...

What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Known It?

William Dever
2003
Eerdmans

...is it any wonder that most mainstream scholars regard them as "minimalists" or that I have dubbed them the "new nehilists"?

On p. 48, Dever says that Thomas "Thompson is even more of a minimalist than Lemche".

On p. 34, Dever redicules Thompson for denying that scholars/historians like J. M. Miller and Gosta Ahlstrom are "ideologues" or "radicals".
Then...

Dever
ibid.
p.79
...radical biblical scholars have recently sought to write "histories of ancient Palestine" as an alternate.There would include works such as Gosta W. Ahlstrom's The History of Ancient Palestine from the... and Thomas l. Thompsons Early History of the Israelite People: From the Written and Archaeological Sources.

Notice he included Ahlstrom and Miller among "radical" minimalists.

Here is what Ahlstrom and Miller said prior to the Tel Dan discovery.

Gosta Ahlstrom

The History of Ancient Palestine
1993

...one man succeeded, however, and freed for some time the hill population from Philistine rule:Saul.
....
449

Saul had created a territorial state that the greater palestinian region had never seen before.Saul can therefore be regarded as the first state builder in palestine.

....
454

From the wing of the political stage a fourth man soon entered, one who managed to become the master of palestine and parts of Syria

avid.For a few generations the peoples of Syria-Palestine would be part of an artificial political unit.

487
...Palestine was not a country that encouraged the creation of alrger political units....Davids kingdom represents an exception.... possibly because there was a power vacuum.
538
...a king the likes of whom was produced neither before or after by that little country

Before I get to J.M Miller let me show was one of his fellow minimalists said of his work (the Miller/Hayes book of 1986) in 1996

Keith Whitelam
The Invention of Ancient Israel
Routledge
1996

p.51
They provide a much more critical attitude... questioning the historicity of the David narratives to a much greater extent than Soggin or any of the standard "biblical histories"....Thus they provide an interesting contrast with the broad scholarly tradition that sees this as a critical period.

....
152

They describe Solomon's kingdom as having consisted of the bulk of western palestine... but excluding the bulk of the Mediterranean coast which would have been in the hands of the Philistines and Phoenicians... they do at least recognize that the Israel of david was not the sole entity in the region.

Here is the Miller/Hayes 1986 book quote (I might be getting the title wrong)

J. Maxwell Miller
John Hayes
History of Ancient Israel and Judah
p149
David founded a dynasty...
....
p.199
Solomon was probably an unusually wealthy and powerful ruler by the standards of Early Iron Age Palestine.... he is to be regarded more as a local ruler over an expanded city-state than a world class emperor.

Here is a 1991 quote of Miller (before the discovery at Dan)

Early Edom and Moab
Piotr Bienkowski
Sheffield Archaeological Monographs 7
p.88

Also my resistance to the notion of an early Iron I Greater Moab monarchy parallels my skepticism regarding the supposed unity, expansiveness and grandeur of the davidic-Solomonic 'empire' (Miller 1991a

He referenced 1991a as an article Solomon:International Potentate of Local King? Palestine Exploration Quarterly 123:28-31.

There you have it! Does it sound like even the (leading)minimalists of the time doubted Davids existence?Much less mainstream historians?

Now, I suggest this be mover to the Bible Accuracy forum.

Posters can discuss whatever they want (from Genesis to Jesus), but I suggest we ponder why such blatantly misleading claims (see thread title) somehow reproduce like bacteria on a dead skunk in 100 degree weather.

Lets head these off while we possibly can.

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