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Author Topic:   Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 1 of 175 (410893)
07-17-2007 5:59 PM


Hi, can someone help me out with the following...I'm not sure i understand something. Is it valid to claim that despite the name Israel mentioned on the Merneptah stele the Egyptians never mentioned them in their records regarding the supposed exodus? I might have my dates mixed up and I wonder if this is a valid statement to dispel the comparison between the israelites and the hyksos. I remember reading on some other website that the hyksos could be the israelites who were driven away from egypt...
I'm new to all this and submerged in tons of information, i was hoping one of you could give me some pointers to put me back on the right track... no christian pun intended..
thanks

Replies to this message:
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AdminPaul
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Message 2 of 175 (410895)
07-17-2007 6:16 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 175 (410898)
07-17-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-17-2007 5:59 PM


quote:
I'm not sure i understand something. Is it valid to claim that despite the name Israel mentioned on the Merneptah stele the Egyptians never mentioned them in their records regarding the supposed exodus?
Yes, it is valid. the Merneptah stele refers to the defeat of a nomadic people called Israel - in Canaan. It is the earliest known reference to Israel and it best matches the Judges period.
quote:
I might have my dates mixed up and I wonder if this is a valid statement to dispel the comparison between the israelites and the hyksos. I remember reading on some other website that the hyksos could be the israelites who were driven away from egypt...
We don't have a reliable date for the Exodus. The Hyksos connection was made by some ancient writers but it is not a good match for the Exodus story. The Hyksos were a ruling dynasty, driven out by war - not escaped slaves. The Hyksos were driven out of Egypt by the 18th Dynasty approximately 350 years before the campaign recorded by the stele.
Hope this helps.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 4 of 175 (410950)
07-18-2007 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-17-2007 5:59 PM


quote:
I remember reading on some other website that the hyksos could be the israelites who were driven away from egypt...
I agree there should be more references and evidences from Egypt. The Hyksos left no writings, and Israel does back-up their history with authentic, contemporanous accounts, with not a single disputation of it on record. The ancient Egyptians are also infamous for erasing any negative factors from their history. Think of Bagdad Bob!

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 17 by Brian, posted 07-18-2007 1:16 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 5 of 175 (410952)
07-18-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
07-17-2007 6:25 PM


quote:
We don't have a reliable date for the Exodus.
Why doubt the world's oldest and most accurate calendar? The OT calendar is in active use today, and its datings are more accurate than anything else, specially circa pre-2000 years ago. I don't think there is any errors in its datings; the modern methods and today's calendar are less accurate for ancient periods.
Abdicate - Jewish Calendar, Gergorian Calendar, and Julian ...
This makes the Hebrew calendar the most accurate in the world because it takes into account the lunar and solar cycles. Even NASA and the U.S. Naval ...
Abdicate - Jewish Calendar, Gergorian Calendar, and Julian Calendar Converter
360-days Prophetic Calendar is the most accurate of all calendars!
The 360 days prophetic calendar of the bible has striking similarites to other calendars---but it excells them all!
http://www.360calendar.com/...phecy-360-days-calendar-3d.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages . ..http://www.360calendar.com/bible-prophecy-360-days-calendar-3d.htm

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Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 6 of 175 (410955)
07-18-2007 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 5:44 AM


IamJoseph, I know Egypcians did record less fortunate events of their history, i just can't recall at this moment, hopefully someone can assist me in naming one. But supposing they did record their own defeats why would they hide the israelites account?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 7 of 175 (410958)
07-18-2007 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Reding
07-18-2007 6:05 AM


quote:
But supposing they did record their own defeats why would they hide the israelites account?
Maybe because Israel represents a failure for the Pharoahs? Are there any egyptian writings about the Hiksos? I see it as, no disputation from any source, equivalent to acquience by silence. The first thing an ascending new pharoah did was to erase the past and anything negative: etchings on pyramids were removed and replaced with the new Pharoah being agrandised.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-18-2007 9:22 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6077 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 8 of 175 (410964)
07-18-2007 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 6:20 AM


Ok i did a quick search and learnt that Egyptians recorded their failed wars against the Hyksos, the Nubians, etc... and a few disastrous mining expeditions into Syria....all from hieroglyph translations. Unfortunately i don't know how reliable my source is, any Egyptologists around here?
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by IamJoseph, posted 07-18-2007 6:20 AM IamJoseph has replied

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 9 of 175 (410967)
07-18-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Reding
07-18-2007 7:23 AM


That is interesting. Any dates or other descriptions involved here - and any admissions of failures?

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 175 (410968)
07-18-2007 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 6:20 AM


IamJoseph
The first thing an ascending new pharoah did was to erase the past and anything negative: etchings on pyramids were removed and replaced with the new Pharoah being agrandised.
Care to back up that statement with the evidence IaJ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 175 (410969)
07-18-2007 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 6:20 AM


The first thing an ascending new pharoah did was to erase the past and anything negative: etchings on pyramids were removed and replaced with the new Pharoah being agrandised.
Oh dear God! Suppose you don't have any evidence for this, eh? Of course, I have mounds of evidence to refute it. Let's just start with the simple fact that in the case of the Great Pyramid, there is little to no text in it at all. The only text found is some builders' graffiti”located in a rather remote region of the pyramid”mentioning the ruler as Khufu, who we know was indeed ruling at that time.
And all the monuments of Rameses? Are we to believe those were actually put there by an earlier King whose name was erased and then replaced with Rameses' name?
Of course, I'd argue that a Jewish story of how a band of a few wondering people founded the Israeli nation, was erased and replaced with the bullshit you call Exodus.
Now, please, don't pollute our new member with your CFCs. (Christian Fundamentalist Crap).
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 175 (410972)
07-18-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 6:20 AM


another really stupid assertion.
The first thing an ascending new pharoah did was to erase the past and anything negative: etchings on pyramids were removed and replaced with the new Pharoah being agrandised.
Like so many things you have posted, that is a really stupid assertion. First, we happen to know about some cases where names were removed because doing so leaves evidence. When you carve something out, it leaves a hole. When you erase one cartouche and replace it with another, it changes the depth of the cartouche related to those surrounding it as well as changing style and aging.
It is also a really stupid attempt to rebut the issue of why there are no records of Hebrew's in Egypt or of some event similar to what is described in the Exodus Myth. It would require that some earlier Pharaoh recorded the story and then some later Pharaoh erased it.
First, stop and think.
One thing the Egyptian Pharaohs DID do is record their ascendancy. If there was any truth to the Exodus Myth, we should see a NEW Pharaoh ascending to the throne recorded. Unfortunately for the Exodus really happened crowd, that evidence just taint there.
So far there has NEVER been found any of the needed support that the Exodus ever happened.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 13 of 175 (410979)
07-18-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by sidelined
07-18-2007 7:50 AM


quote:
sl
Care to back up that statement with the evidence IaJ?
That the ancient egyptians were known to fib rather than report a negative of themselves? Aside from this being generally quoted and accepted by many scholars, its not easy to prove - there is no scroll of self admission by the pharoahs found yet: PROOF THEY DID IT!!! But seriously - we know that Israel was not destroyed by Egypt in the period stated in the Mernepath stele. And that the stele contains less than true reports is gnerally accepted - here's one such assessment:
Merneptah's campaign
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
There is disagreement over whether or not Merneptah did actually campaign in Canaan and didn't merely recount what was there, mirroring later Assyrian documents that could never admit that Assyria could lose in battle. This argument holds some weight, as a stela by Merneptah's predecessor Ramesses II about the Battle of Kadesh indicates firm control of the Levant, making it strange that Merneptah had to reconquer it - unless Merneptah had faced a revolt in this region that he felt compelled to crush in order to exert's Egypt's authority over Canaan. In this case, Merneptah's control over Canaan was precarious at best.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 14 of 175 (410981)
07-18-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-18-2007 9:22 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
quote:
jar
First, stop and think.
One thing the Egyptian Pharaohs DID do is record their ascendancy. If there was any truth to the Exodus Myth, we should see a NEW Pharaoh ascending to the throne recorded. Unfortunately for the Exodus really happened crowd, that evidence just taint there.
So far there has NEVER been found any of the needed support that the Exodus ever happened.
I don't think so. You are trivialising the word 'myth' here. The descriptions in the book of Exodus contains too many authentic, historical details, and too many dates and names - to be classified as myth so strongly. Nor is it true, and without any substance, that this document is one of many others who may be classified as myth: nothing like this document exists anywhere else. In a period where history is difficult to find evidence for, aside from stone etchings, we have numerous archeological evidences of the Israelites embedded in this period and this region, interacting with all the surrounding nations - aside from the book of Exodus, and these are not limited to the one Egyptian stele. Please show us any historical writing with as much backup? Myths don't come with such back-up; nothing does. First, stop and think.
Excerpt/Quotes:
Merneptah Stele
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah) is the reverse of a large granite stele originally erected by the Ancient Egyptian king Amenhotep III, but later inscribed by Merneptah who ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 BC. The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.[1] The stele was discovered in the first court of Merneptah's mortuary temple at Thebes by Flinders Petrie in 1896.[2] Petrie remarked "This stele will be better known in the world than anything else I have found" [3]and is now in the collection of the Egyptian Museum at Cairo; a fragmentary copy of the stele was also found at Karnak.[4]
--------------
The Merneptah Stela, now in the Cairo Museum, is probably the most analyzed ancient text outside of the Bible.
Undoubtedly, the most important mention of Israel outside the Bible is that in the Merneptah, or “Israel,” Stela. Discovered in 1896 in Merneptah's mortuary temple in Thebes by Flinders Petrie, the stela is a poetic eulogy to pharaoh Merneptah, who ruled Egypt after Rameses the Great, ca. 1212-1202 BC. Of significance to Biblical studies is a short section at the end of the poem describing a campaign to Canaan by Merneptah in the first few years of his reign, ca. 1210 BC. One line mentions Israel: “Israel is laid waste, its seed is not.” Here we have the earliest mention of Israel outside the Bible and the only mention of Israel in Egyptian records.
Since the date of the reference to Israel in the
. . ..
Hasel's study of the Merneptah Stela is extremely important. It clears up a number of misconceptions and focuses attention on the true significance of the stela. It indicates that Israel was well established in Canaan in the late 13th century BC and was a significant political force to be reckoned with. Hasel concludes,
Israel functioned as an agriculturally-based/sedentary socioethnic entity in the late 13th century B.C., one that is significant enough to be included in the military campaign against political powers in Canaan. . While the Merneptah stela does not give any indication of the actual social structure of the people of Israel, it does indicate that Israel was a significant socioethnic entity that needed to be reckoned with (1994: 54; 56, n. 12).
----------------
Bethsaida - Archeology in Israel
The area of Bethsaida is first known from the Amarna letters, a 14th century BCE correspondence between Egyptian pharaohs and rulers in Palestine under Egyptian administration. From the 10th century BCE Bethsaida was the capital of a small Aramaean kingdom, called Geshur; mentioned in the Bible.
The Discovery of the Hittites
Archaeology and the Old Testament
The Hittites played a prominent role in Old Testament history. They interacted with biblical figures as early as Abraham and as late as Solomon. They are mentioned in Genesis 15:20 as people who inhabited the land of Canaan.
The discovery of the Hittites has proven to be one of the great archaeological finds of all time. It has helped to confirm the biblical narrative and had a great impact on Middle East archaeological study. Because of it, we have come to a greater understanding of the history of our language, as well as the religious, social, and political practices of the ancient Middle East.
Important Egyptian Discoveries Relating to the Bible.
IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Egyptian Hieroglyphics
1. Rosetta Stone discovered in 1799. This led to the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics.
2. Merneptah's Stele. First mention of "Israel" in Egyptian texts. Stele dates to about 1210 BC.
3. Amarna Letters (14th century BC). Letters written from Canaanite scribes in Akkadian to king Akhenaten about the conditions in Canaan, especially the troublesome Hapiru which probably refers to the Hebrews.
4. Inscriptions at Karnak. Karnak is the largest temple complex in the world. There also may be the earliest depiction of the Israelites.
5. Mortuary Temple of Rameses III at Medinet Habu. It depicts the battle with the Sea People. One of the five groups of Sea Peoples was the Philistines. There are carvings of what the Philistines looked like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-18-2007 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 175 (410996)
07-18-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by IamJoseph
07-18-2007 11:13 AM


Re: another really stupid assertion.
I'm sorry but absolutely nothing in your post has anything to do with your earlier stupid assertion that some new Pharaoh erased the recorded inscriptions of Hebrews in Egypt. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that at the supposed time of the Exodus no new Pharaoh came to the throne in Egypt.
The descriptions in the book of Exodus contains too many authentic, historical details, and too many dates and names - to be classified as myth so strongly.
Another really stupid assertion. Huck Finn contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. From the Earth to the Moon contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. A Tale of Two Cities contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. The Legend of Sleepy Hollow contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. Eaters of the Dead: The Manuscript of Ibn Fadlan Relating His Experiences with the Northmen in A.D. 922 contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. Mother of Kings contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction. A Canticle for Leibowitz contains many dates and names and authentic historical details. However, it is totally fiction.
Having authentic names and places mentioned in a story does not mean the story is not just fiction.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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