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Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 213 (68554)
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


The CLAIM of the Bible is that it is the word of God. Critics constantly dismiss the CLAIM by merely stating that it was written by error prone man, therefore it could not reflect the mind of God accurately. The real reason behind the dismissal is rejection of its content because their subjective view of how God must be doesn't match what they read in scripture, therfore they shoot the messenger and reject the CLAIM. The CLAIM is verified and validated by the central message which is : Good or bad whatever God says comes to pass. When this is understood and seen it is intended to give US the confidence to claim the promises that apply to our circumstances.When the absolute reliability of His word is ascertained through its demon-stration then you now understand the message of the Bible.

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 2 of 213 (68558)
11-22-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


What?

How are we supposed to understand God other than what is stated in the Bible. This is what most of us find objectionable. God in the OT, is a murdering meglomaniac, in the NT he's a hippie. So, what ARE we supposed to think?

That this us a consistent creator, who espouses consistent reliable moral guidelines when his Biblical nature portrays him as a bit of a pschizophrenic(sp)?

And what has God said that has come to pass? I have yet to find one thing. Most of the events in the Bible fail to stand up to scientific scrutany, and historical data. So what on earth has God ever said that can be known for sure has happend?

[This message has been edited by Yaro, 11-22-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 2:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 213 (68559)
11-22-2003 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


When the absolute reliability of His word is ascertained through its demon-stration

Gotta love the good ol' Freudian slip!


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6810
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 4 of 213 (68561)
11-22-2003 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 2:52 PM


(Sigh) Again.
Hello, Willowtree.

You make some pretty bold claims. Perhaps you would like to elaborate?
In another thread I posted the contradicting accounts of the resurrection found in the Gospels. Why claim that whatever God says will come to pass when she doesn't seem to be able to tell us very accurately what has come to pass?


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 213 (68568)
11-22-2003 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
11-22-2003 2:58 PM


Until you understand that IF God is God then He is answerable to no one but Himself. Why did He tell on Himself and include all the horror of the O.T. ? What you don't like is the judgements He made. You reject God because you do not like the fact that He told the children of Israel to kill every living thing in the promise land. The point is that God judges those refuse to listen to Him. You reject God because you dont like the way He treated some people. Well you are alive and He hasn't killed you so how is God a murderer ? The horror of the O.T. is because of the seriouness of sin which you do not see. The love of the N.T. rectifies this but people like you do not want to deal with a Creator period.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6810
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 6 of 213 (68571)
11-22-2003 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 3:38 PM


Just my opinion, but I think it would be more productive, Willowtree, it you were to spend more effort making logical arguments for your beliefs and stop spending so much time trying to analyze the motives of those who disgree with you.

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 7 of 213 (68574)
11-22-2003 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 3:38 PM


You reject God because you dont like the way He treated some people

Willowtree,

What you don't seem to understand is that most atheists don't reject your god because of what we percieve him to have done. We don't believe in him period. How can you reject the actions of something you don't believe in?

I see the discussions on the bible as analogous with this thread on the Matrix movies. With one small exception, The Brothers W, creators of the movies, aren't trying to get it taught as fact in our schools and aren't trying to pass legislation based on it's tenets.

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 213 (68576)
11-22-2003 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 3:38 PM


Until you understand that IF God is God then He is answerable to no one but Himself.

Do you believe that this is a quality of a moral being? Answering only to themselves?

I don't. Of course I don't even believe in God so it's not my problem. But if you want to believe in an immoral God, go right ahead.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-22-2003 4:46 PM crashfrog has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 213 (68589)
11-22-2003 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
11-22-2003 4:03 PM


Reply to Atheists
I thank everyone who has replied to my posts/topics, I would reply to them but I do not know how. Most replies came from atheists, and this means we are far apart in our views, that it is useless to debate what we have been debating because there is no common ground. So let me back up and get to the issue at hand : "The existence of God"
The Bible teaches {speaking for God of course} that atheism is a penalty from God for continually denying Him as Creator. This means that the atheist has not rejected per se, but God has rejected you as His response to your refusal to acknowledge Him as God. No person can manufacture the desire for God , any urge no matter how miniscule comes from God. To not have any desire for God , to not care what God thinks of you are the chief indicators that God has rejected you. Immediately one might say "I cant be rejected by someone that I dont believe exists". What the Bible is saying is that the reason you do not believe He exists is because He has rejected you even though from your perspective you believe you reject His existence for whatever reason you believe that to be true. The initiative starts with God, and He doesnt choose everyone contrary to traditional teaching which is wrong. Like it or not this is what the Bible teaches. To have any desire for God means He has not given up on you. Therefore , all you atheists out there who flatter yourselves about being desired by God you are deceiving only yourself. God aint on trial with no one. His unconditional love has one condition : that a person respond to it in a predetermined amount of time only known to God. The bare minimum that God asks is that a person acknowledge Him as God and to be thankful. The inability to do this means He has probably removed your ability to respond as a penalty for trifling with Him.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 213 (68592)
11-22-2003 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 4:46 PM


Most replies came from atheists, and this means we are far apart in our views, that it is useless to debate what we have been debating because there is no common ground.

Sure there's a common ground. We can both think. Of course, if you're unwilling to do so, then there is no common ground.

This means that the atheist has not rejected per se, but God has rejected you as His response to your refusal to acknowledge Him as God.

That can't be true, as I became an atheist because there's no God. Prior to that, I was a very devout Christian.

What the Bible is saying is that the reason you do not believe He exists is because He has rejected you even though from your perspective you believe you reject His existence for whatever reason you believe that to be true.

Well of course the Bible makes that convoluted claim. The Bible is written in such a way as to make everything, even the existence of unbelievers, as evidence for God.

The much more reasonable explanation is that atheists reject the existence of God because there's no evidence that God exists. It's a very reasonable position unless you start from the assumption that God exists no matter what.

The inability to do this means He has probably removed your ability to respond as a penalty for trifling with Him.

Oh, sure. I mean, it couldn't possibly be because there's no evidence whatsoever for the existence of God, right?

Frankly I find your post arrogant and insulting, so let me return the favor. If you believe in God for these reasons it can only be because you refuse to think.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 11 of 213 (68594)
11-22-2003 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 4:46 PM


Re: Reply to Atheists
So, in other words, god responds to our disbelief by giving us disbelief?

Basically what I am seeing here is the argument of the elect. If god does not choose me then he makes me disbelieve? He doesn't choose me because I disbeleive? Talk about circular arguments.

------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato


This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 213 (68595)
11-22-2003 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 4:46 PM


Re: Reply to Atheists
WILLOWTREE

As you say it is the bible[at least for you apparently]that forms the basis for a belief in God. For myself at least this speaks volumes as to the validity of God. There is no part of the bible that makes the case for this book as being inspired by much less the actual word of God.
If it is in your nature to accept such as true that is your choice.As an atheist I do not reject God I simply have no attendance to the belief. I suppose you can argue endlessly about the existence of such things but I am no worse off for the absence of this in my life and I feel that I have a good life and I enjoy the small time that I have to exist.I have great kids who try my patience and wear me down and dress odd and listen to horrible music.

Every once in a while,though,they do something magical.They sing when they think no one is listening or they sculpt things out of clay that amaze me with their beauty and imagination.And sometimes I actually catch them making decisions that show me they will be alright long after I am gone.It is at these times that life shows me the lesson of death for humans.Without it we would too easily take for granted the important people in our lives and too easily miss the magic of these moments.

------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."


This message is a reply to:
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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 13 of 213 (68600)
11-22-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 4:46 PM


Re: Reply to Atheists
The bare minimum that God asks is that a person acknowledge Him as God and to be thankful. The inability to do this means He has probably removed your ability to respond as a penalty for trifling with Him.

At the very least, the example of some snot-nosed brain actually embracing such an inane position should serve as a stunning refutation of Intelligent Design.

This message is a reply to:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 14 of 213 (68619)
11-22-2003 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object
11-22-2003 3:38 PM


Hey Willow Tree,

Until you understand that IF God is God then He is answerable to no one but Himself. Why did He tell on Himself and include all the horror of the O.T. ? What you don't like is the judgements He made.You reject God because you do not like the fact that He told the children of Israel to kill every living thing in the promise land. The point is that God judges those refuse to listen to Him. You reject God because you dont like the way He treated some people.

This God ordered rape, murder, and infantaside. And yet he was makeing sound an Just orders?

You say those he slayed didn't listen to him. Did the babys not listen? The young virgins that were raped? People who had lived in Cana for generations before the isrealits. Why do they deserve to die?

If this God exists, why would I want to worship him? He's a psychopath!

Well you are alive and He hasn't killed you so how is God a murderer ?

Jhon Wayne Gaysee is alive, he hasn't killed you, so how is he a murderer?

The horror of the O.T. is because of the seriouness of sin which you do not see.

What sin do I not see? I read about a bunch of people who settled a land. Generations later, some isrealites decide to take it back. So the isrealites kill everyone in sight. What sin didn't I see?

Maybe you don't see the SIN, the isrealies commited when they dashed babies on rocks and raped young women.

The love of the N.T. rectifies this but people like you do not want to deal with a Creator period.

How does the NT rectify this? Supposedly most of the world is gonna go to hell and burn anyway. I think things were better when only some of us were killed by those murderous isrealites.

Ever thought about all the american indians before Columbus? Thier in hell now I suppose. Never got a chance to reject God eaither, because they never heard of him.


This message is a reply to:
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Tsegamla
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 213 (68628)
11-22-2003 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Yaro
11-22-2003 7:04 PM


This may be a little off topic, but what is the general Christian stance on the pre-Colombus Indians anyway? I ran a search on Google and didn't really find anything (it was hard to come up with fitting keywords). Anyone mind telling me in short or pointing me to somewhere where I can find out?

This message is a reply to:
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