Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8913 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-16-2019 2:41 AM
19 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK (2 members, 17 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Arnold Wolf
Post Volume:
Total: 853,784 Year: 8,820/19,786 Month: 1,242/2,119 Week: 2/576 Day: 2/50 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   the expansion of universe
nanyfarouk
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 10 (94456)
03-24-2004 1:43 PM


The Expansion of the Universe in the Qur'an

(Islamweb) By Dr. Harun Yahya

In 1929, in the California Mount Wilson observatory, an American astronomer by the name of Edwin Hubble made one of the greatest discoveries in the history of astronomy. While he observed the stars with a giant telescope, he found out that the light from them was shifted to the red end of the spectrum and that this shift was more pronounced the further a star was from the earth.

This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognised rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of the light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble's observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us.

Before long, Hubble made another very important discovery: Stars and galaxies moved away not only from us, but also from one another. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly 'expands'.

To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.

In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as 'the greatest mistake of his career'. Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble's observations that the universe expands.

What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe? The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this 'single point' that harboured all the matter of the universe should have 'zero volume' and 'infinite density'. The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the 'Big Bang' and the theory started to be so called.

It has to be stated that 'zero volume' is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of 'nothingness', which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as a point with zero volume'. In truth, 'a point with no volume' means 'nothingness'. The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.

The Big Bang theory showed that in the beginning all the objects in the universe were of one piece and then were parted. This fact, which was revealed by the Big Bang theory was stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, when people had a very limited knowledge about the universe: "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Al-Anbiyaa 21:30]

As stated in the verse, everything, even the 'heavens and the earth' that were not yet created, were created with a Big Bang out of a single point, and shaped the present universe by being parted from each other.

When we compare the statements in the verse with the Big Bang theory, we see that they fully agree with each other. However, the Big Bang was introduced as a scientific theory only in the 20th century.

The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago: "It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Az-Zariyat 51:47]

Friday : 16/05/2003

For more information about Islam
http://www.geocities.com/toislamways/new3.html
please contact me at
islamq_a@gawab.com
To Request Free Islamic Books & Resources:
imanwayibaw@gawab.com


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 1:50 PM nanyfarouk has not yet responded

Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 10 (94460)
03-24-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nanyfarouk
03-24-2004 1:43 PM


Predictions have to made BEFORE the event
So, if it was laid out so clearly in the Quran, can you tell me which Muslim scientist predicted the CMB radiation?

They had 1400 years to do so.

PE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nanyfarouk, posted 03-24-2004 1:43 PM nanyfarouk has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 03-24-2004 2:07 PM Primordial Egg has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19865
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 3 of 10 (94463)
03-24-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Primordial Egg
03-24-2004 1:50 PM


Re: Predictions have to made BEFORE the event
Harun Yahya website regurgitates most (old and tired) creationist misinformation with an islamic slant.

see http://www.harunyahya.com/refuted1.php

Ignoring the (valid) question for now on whether the Big Bang actually occurred as a single event at the beginning of time, there are substantial discrepancies in the order of things as presented by such creation models and the standard cosmic model, not least of which is that stars condensed, ignited, grew old and died before the earth was assemblied from their debris. Taking parts of the concept that fit a religious cosmology and discarding those that don't is not a validation of the religious cosmology.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 1:50 PM Primordial Egg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 2:43 PM RAZD has responded

Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 10 (94470)
03-24-2004 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
03-24-2004 2:07 PM


Its all so very clear
Indeed, Harun Yahya (aka Adnan Oktar) carries quite an unsavoury reputation with him as well.

Its funny the way any time a new scientific discovery is made, the religious rush to their holy scriptures, scrabble frantically for anything they can contort within the text and say "Aha! told you so!".

Surely Muslims should have mentioned this before, after all, isn't the Quran supposedly crystal clear on such matters?

[2.187] ...Thus does Allah make clear His communications for men that they may guard (against evil).

[2.219] ...Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

[2.242] Allah thus makes clear to you His communications that you may understand.

[3.103] ... thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

etc

If we delve into the actual Arabic...

awa lam yaraa allatheena kafaroo anna as-Samaawaati wa al-Arda kaanataa ratqan fa-fataqnaahumaa. How one translates those words can make or break the polemic. The opening part of the verse asks "Do not those who disbelieve see that..." and then we get to what it is that the disbelievers have not seen (id est, what should have been obvious to them - interestingly hinting that the original intention of the author was to convey something that was taken as common sense at the time the text was uttered). A step-by-step analysis of the relevant remaining Arabic is needed here. Have not the disbelievers seen that as-Samaawaati ("the heavens") wa ("and") al-Arda ("the earth") kaanataa ("were") ratqan ("sewn [together]") fa ("then") fataqnaahumaa ("we ripped them").

From here. Note how the Quran claims that the Earth existed before the Big Bang, and that it was ripped from the Heavens. Soounds frighteningly like modern cosmology. Not.

So, to recap, we have a "clear" book which unambiguously tells its readers that the Universe was created by ripping apart the heaven and the Earth, and yet no Muslim scientist predicted the Big Bang even though the Quran - the very word of God Himself - told them in clear and certain terms.

Fishy.

Also, interestingly, I wonder how many Muslim apologists would abandon their faith if the Big Bang theory was proved incorrect tomorrow? After all, that would make the Quran wrong, wouldn't it?

And I have seen it suggested by some unkind folk, that the Big Bang was the result of Allah blowing Himself up in a bungled suicide operation. Makes about as much sense.

PE

[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 03-24-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 03-24-2004 2:07 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 03-24-2004 3:33 PM Primordial Egg has responded
 Message 8 by nanyfarouk, posted 03-31-2004 8:42 AM Primordial Egg has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19865
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 5 of 10 (94485)
03-24-2004 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Primordial Egg
03-24-2004 2:43 PM


Re: Its all so very clear
mmm, that is a little heavy ...

certainly we have heard nothing from the creationist crowds on the theory of ekpyrosis - Brane Storm (click) - which posits recurring universes.

should make the fundie Hindus happy ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 2:43 PM Primordial Egg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 3:46 PM RAZD has responded

Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 10 (94493)
03-24-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
03-24-2004 3:33 PM


Re: Its all so very clear
should make the fundie Hindus happy ...

Indeed.

Hinduism is the only religion that propounds the idea of life-cycles of the universe. It suggests that the universe undergoes an infinite number of deaths and rebirths. Hinduism, according to Carl Sagan, "... is the only religion in which the time scales correspond... to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of the Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang"

Long before Aryabhata (6th century) came up with this awesome achievement, apparently there was a mythological angle to this as well -- it becomes clear when one looks at the following translation of Bhagavad Gita (part VIII, lines 16 and 17),

"All the planets of the universe, from the most evolved to the most base, are places of suffering, where birth and death takes place. But for the soul that reaches my Kingdom, O son of Kunti, there is no more reincarnation. One day of Brahma is worth a thousand of the ages [yuga] known to humankind; as is each night."

Thus each kalpa is worth one day in the life of Brahma, the God of creation. In other words, the four ages of the mahayuga must be repeated a thousand times to make a "day ot Brahma", a unit of time that is the equivalent of 4.32 billion human years, doubling which one gets 8.64 billion years for a Brahma day and night. This was later theorized (possibly independently) by Aryabhata in the 6th century. The cyclic nature of this analysis suggests a universe that is expanding to be followed by contraction... a cosmos without end. This, according to modern physicists is not an impossibility.

(source: Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India).

Count Maurice Maeterlinck (1862-1949) was a Belgian writer of poetry, a wide variety of essays. He won the 1911 Nobel Prize for literature. In his book Mountain Paths, says:

"he falls back upon the earliest and greatest of Revelations, those of the Sacred Books of India with a Cosmogony which no European conception has ever surpassed."

(source: Mountain Paths - By Maurice Maeterlinck).

Princeton University’s Paul Steinhardt and Cambridge University’s Neil Turok, have recently developed The Cyclical Model.

They have just fired their latest volley at that belief, saying there could be a timeless cycle of expansion and contraction. It’s an idea as old as Hinduism, updated for the 21st century. The theorists acknowledge that their cyclic concept draws upon religious and scientific ideas going back for millennia — echoing the "oscillating universe" model that was in vogue in the 1930s, as well as the Hindu belief that the universe has no beginning or end, but follows a cosmic cycle of creation and dissolution.
(source: Questioning the Big Bang - msnbcnews.com).

PE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 03-24-2004 3:33 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 03-24-2004 3:54 PM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19865
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 7 of 10 (94498)
03-24-2004 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Primordial Egg
03-24-2004 3:46 PM


Re: Its all so very clear
yep

those are the ekpyrotic guys.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 3:46 PM Primordial Egg has not yet responded

nanyfarouk
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 10 (96277)
03-31-2004 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Primordial Egg
03-24-2004 2:43 PM


Re: Its all so very clear
Consider yourself living in 7th Century Arabia:

Society has very little scientific knowledge. Bedouin tribalism is the "dominant feature" of the population (The Arabs in History , Bernard Lewis (1958), page 23). This mostly desolate area in which you live, is an "oral" culture, with a "nomadic" lifestyle. Very few people know how to read, even fewer know how to write. Myth and magic controls people's thoughts and guides their rituals. Trade routes to the north (and the resulting contact with the major Empires) has very recently been restored, after two centuries of decline and deterioration (The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years , Bernard Lewis, 1995). How far would you go if you wanted to discover the true origin of the universe? How much progress would you make if you wanted to uncover the origin of life? The Koran mentions that at a stage in its origin, the universe was "gaseous":

"And also, turned He to the sky when it was as smoke.."(Koran 41:11).
The Koran uses the Arabic word Dukhan, which stands for smoke. A perfect analogy for gas and particles in suspension and the gasses being hot.

Scientists have only very recently confirmed that the universe was indeed, at an early stage, a gaseous mass composed of hydrogen and some helium, a big mass of hot gasses. The Koran is more accurate in describing the gasses as "smoke" rather than the word "mist" or "fog" used frequently by scientists (Rees uses the word "fog" in his book)as the gasses were hot.

The Koran used this analogy centuries before anyone in the world had any idea about helium and hydrogen, yet even today scientists use a crude form of the same analogy. The Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre, lecturing in 1930, fourteen hundred years after the Koran, described this stage of cosmic evolution as: "..the filling of the
heavens with smoke."(Ferris, Timothy 1997:109) Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.”2 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here ). Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”3 (View the RealPlayer video of this comment ).
see this website (video of this comment)
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-c.htm

[This message has been edited by nanyfarouk, 03-31-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-24-2004 2:43 PM Primordial Egg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Primordial Egg, posted 03-31-2004 11:32 AM nanyfarouk has not yet responded

Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 10 (96331)
03-31-2004 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by nanyfarouk
03-31-2004 8:42 AM


drive-by pasting
Two posts, two cut n pastes:

Society has very little scientific knowledge. Bedouin tribalism is the "dominant feature" of the population (The Arabs in History , Bernard Lewis (1958), page 23). This mostly desolate area in which you live, is an "oral" culture, with a "nomadic" lifestyle. Very few people know how to read, even fewer know how to write. Myth and magic controls people's thoughts and guides their rituals. Trade routes to the north (and the resulting contact with the major Empires) has very recently been restored, after two centuries of decline and deterioration (The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years , Bernard Lewis, 1995). How far would you go if you wanted to discover the true origin of the universe? How much progress would you make if you wanted to uncover the origin of life? The Koran mentions that at a stage in its origin, the universe was "gaseous":

Taken from http://members.aol.com/silence004/

Incidentally, this is what it also says on that website:

Permission to reproduce these articles will be granted on receipt of a written request provided: the sources and the author are acknowledged, linked to and no alterations made to the text.

As I asked before, why didn't Muslim scientists discover the CMB?

PE


"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." - Emo Philips
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nanyfarouk, posted 03-31-2004 8:42 AM nanyfarouk has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 10 of 10 (96691)
04-01-2004 5:20 PM


Thread copied to the www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=2&t=136&p=5">the expansion of universe thread in the Big Bang and Cosmology forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019