Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
110 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK (2 members, 108 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,057 Year: 5,169/6,534 Month: 12/577 Week: 0/80 Day: 0/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Problems with the first life
tubi417
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 138 (124386)
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


Alright lets pretend that somehow a cell was formed in a primative ocean. Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles(and the chances of this happening are.......). The first life you think would be pretty fragile, yet because there had to have been no oxygen in the atmosphere there obviously would NOT be an ozone layer. Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.

Lets say that it magically survives and somehow this cell mutated so that it magically mastered many essential life process-for example-

Protein Synthesis- It had to have a mutation that would create mRNA and somehow a mutation to get it to the right place and somehow another mutation for the tRNA to develope and so on. If one of these "mutations" that created the process of protein synthesis was wrong- lets say the tRNA was brought to the vacuole- the cell DOES NOT survive.

Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now.

Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.
How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 07-14-2004 3:36 AM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 4 by 1.61803, posted 07-14-2004 11:35 AM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 5 by Coragyps, posted 07-14-2004 11:54 AM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 7 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 12:35 PM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 15 by biochem_geek, posted 07-15-2004 3:18 AM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 16 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-15-2004 3:31 AM tubi417 has replied
 Message 18 by dandon83, posted 07-15-2004 7:02 AM tubi417 has taken no action
 Message 104 by mihkel4397, posted 02-15-2005 4:26 PM tubi417 has taken no action

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 138 (124388)
07-14-2004 3:04 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 742 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 138 (124391)
07-14-2004 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.

You answered this in the first part of your paragraph - the ocean protects it, if it's deep enough.

Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now.

Since asexual reprodction would have to be the first thing it could do - replication being a prerequisite of being considered "alive" - it doesn't make sense to say this comes from a "mutation." Rather, asexual reproduction is an inherent quality of life. If it can't reproduce, it's not alive.

If we're talking about the first living thing, reproduction is already a given.

Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.

All life processes, including reproduction of any kind, are "some kind of chemical process" so this statement is more or less meaningless.

Given that there are plenty of living things today that lack all organelles why would you propose that the first living thing would have to have all organelles?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-14-2004 3:03 AM tubi417 has taken no action

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 779 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 4 of 138 (124455)
07-14-2004 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


tubi417 writes:

How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.

Well tubi how likely is it that the density of water is 1? Or that the solid form of water floats? Or the fact that Iron binds with O2? Life on every level is riddled with complexity and unlikely processes that have taken place. The fact that you are reading this is evidence of this.
If the density of the universe is not what it is nothing would live. How unlikely is your very birth? (to quote monty python) But yet you are here. Abiogenesis has occurred and perhaps someday mankind will discover how it did, just as man has discovered every other taboo subject the church has deemed was heresey to explore. The moon is not made of cheese and flageston does not exist. edit typo.

This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-14-2004 10:38 AM

This message has been edited by 1.61803, 07-14-2004 10:39 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-14-2004 3:03 AM tubi417 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 12:21 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 10 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 138 (124460)
07-14-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles

Even today's bacteria, with three billion years' evolution behind them, don't have organelles. Why insist that the first replicator did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-14-2004 3:03 AM tubi417 has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 138 (124463)
07-14-2004 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by 1.61803
07-14-2004 11:35 AM


Well tubi how likely is it that the density of water is 1?

Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by 1.61803, posted 07-14-2004 11:35 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 12:38 PM jar has taken no action
 Message 9 by fnord, posted 07-14-2004 1:43 PM jar has replied
 Message 12 by 1.61803, posted 07-14-2004 2:38 PM jar has taken no action

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 7 of 138 (124466)
07-14-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


tubi417 writes:

Alright lets pretend that somehow a cell was formed in a primative ocean.


Let me outline our current generally accepted abiogenesis model.
quote:

Stage 1 Abiotic synthesis of organic monomers.

We know for a fact that organic molecules form natrually rather easily under certain condition. This was demonstrated by the Miller experiment in the early 50's. He basically created an enclosed apparatus and he put inside water, hydrogen gas, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and a whole bunch of other non-organic molecules that thought to have existed in early earth environment. He then zapped the apparatus with electricity for about 3-4 days. He then took the apparatus apart and found amino acids, monomers of proteins, ATP, and a whole bunch of other organic molecules.

Repeats of the orginal experiment by other scientists have produced all 20 amino acids necessary for life, lipids, sugars, nucleotides of monomers of DNA and RNA, and ATP.

Stage 2 Abiotic Synthesis of polymers

The miller experiment have shown that organic monomers can form quite easily naturally without any divine intervention. This stage explains how these monomers could come together and form polymers such as proteins and nucleic acids without help from biological components today like enzymes.

Scientists have been able to create such polymerization without any divine intervention by dripping solutions of organic monomers onto hot sand, rock, and clay. The heat vaporizes the water in the solutions and the monomres naturally establish bonds that form polymers such as chains of amino acids that make up proteins.

The hypothesis goes that water may have splashed the monomers onto hot rocks of early earth and natural processes pretty much took care of the rest.

Stage 3 Self replicating molecules

The hypothesis suggests that the first replicating organic material were short strands of RNA. Laboratory experiments have shown that nucleotide monomers can naturally assemble into RNA molecules without divine intervention. This process happens without the presence of cells or enzymes. As you can imagine, the result is a pool of RNA strands. Now, what scientists have also observed is that some of these RNA strands actually self replicate without any help from anything whatsoever.

Stage 4 Assembly of pre-cells

Again, laboratory experiments have shown that lipids can fold and establish a self-contained environment in the center from the environment.

For those of you that doesn't know what a cell structure look like, here is a brief explantion. A prokaryotic cell contains a cell wall that isolate the inside from the outside environment.

A pre-cell is pretty much very similar to this structural design. Lipids could have curved in itself and isolate a small pocket of envirnment in the center. When scientists put the pre-cells (which assembled without any help from anybody) into different solutions of salt concentrations, they found that pre-cells store energy in a form of voltage in their membrane (the cell wall equivalent). When introduced certain enzymes to the pre-cells, the precells displayed a very primitive metabolism. They absorbed substratesfrom their surroundings and release the products of the reactions.


Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles(and the chances of this happening are.......).

What the heck are you talking about? Many many many things today don't have any organelle at all. Why demand that the first life must have all organelles?

The first life you think would be pretty fragile, yet because there had to have been no oxygen in the atmosphere there obviously would NOT be an ozone layer.

According to our currently accepted model, the first life started in the ocean. Plenty of protection there.

Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.

There is also another possibility. We think that the first life on earth were actually the archaea domain. They are extreme bacteria living in extreme areas, like hyperthermal vents deep in the ocean that sometimes get hotter than a hundred degrees, volcanically active regions, deep below the earth's surface where there's no sunlight and the bacteria are dependent on non-organic minerals only, and the polar ice caps.

Who knows? For all we know, there once could have existed a form of life that could withstand that much solar radiation.

Lets say that it magically survives and somehow this cell mutated so that it magically mastered many essential life process-for example-

Again, you are making an unfounded assertion. In order for something to be alive, it has to have the essential processes that life possess, such as a metabolism. Otherwise, it's not alive.

Protein Synthesis- It had to have a mutation that would create mRNA and somehow a mutation to get it to the right place and somehow another mutation for the tRNA to develope and so on. If one of these "mutations" that created the process of protein synthesis was wrong- lets say the tRNA was brought to the vacuole- the cell DOES NOT survive.

You are describing a eukaryotic cell. The first life on earth were prokariotes.

Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now.

If it can't produce, it's not alive. Therefore, it was a given in the first place.

In some experiments, precells have been known to divide through fusion. There is no reason to believe that the first cells couldn't reproduce the same way.

Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.

What the fuck are you talking? This assertion doesn't even begin to make any sense.

How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.

If you go back and start making sense of yourself, we can go on to this point. Before then, I don't think any explanation we have can help. If you want to have a steak for dinner, you must first realize that you have to go out to the supermarket to get some meat. Can't make a steak by just assuming that it will already be on the table waiting for you to devour it. Get my drift?


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-14-2004 3:03 AM tubi417 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by gbunty, posted 07-24-2004 2:21 PM coffee_addict has replied
 Message 96 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2004 3:16 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 138 (124467)
07-14-2004 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-14-2004 12:21 PM


jar writes:

Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is.


I think he was refering to how the specific density of liquid water allow solid water to float, thus protecting life in cold regions.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 12:21 PM jar has taken no action

  
fnord
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 138 (124482)
07-14-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-14-2004 12:21 PM


Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is.

Reminds me of dutch writer Gerard Reve who said that the fact that water freezes at exactly 0º and boils at exactly 100º is proof for him that there has to be a God.


Thank God I'm an atheist -- Luis Buñuel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 1:50 PM fnord has replied
 Message 11 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 1:56 PM fnord has taken no action

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 138 (124484)
07-14-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by fnord
07-14-2004 1:43 PM


Hahahahahaha He actually said that? That's the funniest thing I've seen this week.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by fnord, posted 07-14-2004 1:43 PM fnord has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by fnord, posted 07-14-2004 7:25 PM coffee_addict has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 11 of 138 (124486)
07-14-2004 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by fnord
07-14-2004 1:43 PM


Works for me.

I swear, we really do need to start up our own Creationist site. Maybe we can co-op with Landover Baptist?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by fnord, posted 07-14-2004 1:43 PM fnord has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 4:43 PM jar has taken no action

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 779 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 12 of 138 (124494)
07-14-2004 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-14-2004 12:21 PM


i dedicate this song to jar
Galaxy Song by Monty Python
Whenever life get you down Mrs. Brown And things seem hard or tough And people are stupid obnoxious or daft And you feel that youv've had quite enough.. Just remember that you are standing on a planet thats evolving And revolving at nine hundres miles an hour Its orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so its reckoned A sun that is the source of all our power
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see Are moving at a million miles a day. In an outer spiral arm at forty thousands miles an hour In a galaxy we call the milky way. Our galaxy itself, contains a hundred billion stars Its a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle , sixteen thousand light years thick But out by us its just three thousand light years wide. We're thiry thousand light years from galactic central point We go round every two hundred million years And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions in this amazing and expanding universe. The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can wizz, As fast as it can go the speed of light ya know Twelve million miles a minute and thats the fastest speed there is. So remember when your feeling very small and insecure How amazingly unlikely is your birth. And pray that theres intellegent life somewhere up in space Cause theres buggers all down here on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 12:21 PM jar has taken no action

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 138 (124530)
07-14-2004 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
07-14-2004 1:56 PM


Actually, I just thought of a good argument for the creationist... Good God! I just found a tick on my leg! Just came back from the forest. Need to shower immediately.


The Laminator


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 07-14-2004 1:56 PM jar has taken no action

  
fnord
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 138 (124558)
07-14-2004 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
07-14-2004 1:50 PM


literary corner
He actually said that?

I've looked it up, because I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly, and he really wrote it in a published letter to a friend. The best thing is, he was serious.

So in more or less the same vein a poem:

QUIA ABSURDUM

You've finished your new book
You've quit drinking
You've passed your driving test
What further proof of God do you need?

Gerard Reve (1987)

(translated by me; and it doesn't rhyme in Dutch either)


Thank God I'm an atheist -- Luis Buñuel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 1:50 PM coffee_addict has taken no action

  
biochem_geek
Inactive Junior Member


Message 15 of 138 (124658)
07-15-2004 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-14-2004 3:03 AM


Tubi,

The arguments in your post presume that life sprung into existance as a complete cell ready to go. I don't think anyone actually thinks that. Google for the phrase "RNA world" to get a good run down of one possible mechanism for the beginig of life.

Interstingly the rRNA in ribosomes has been shown in recent years to do the catalysing in protein synthesis, suggesting that proteins came later and that perhaps the RNA world was supplanted by a RNArotein world then finally when selective pressure required longer last "archives" of gentetic material DNA evolved. If you are actually interested in this hypothesis I could drag out my old mol. bio. notes

Oh, and also:

quote:
Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.

Not so, look at Deinococcus radiodurans a cell capable of living in nuclear reactors!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tubi417, posted 07-14-2004 3:03 AM tubi417 has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022