Biblical Revelation - Does it exist?

I am a Christian that does not believe that the entire Bible is to be taken literally. I do believe however, that there are some amazing truths as well as actual divine revelation in the Bible.I offer up the following as evidence, (not to be confused with proof), for my assertion that there is divine revelation in the Bible.1. The Bible says that this is a created world, a created universe and that we are created beings.The story in Genesis was written hundreds of years ago and was written at a time when, (I stand to be corrected if I’m wrong), all other religions worshipped gods that were usually things such as the sun or statues, or gods in general who were not creators.2. The Bible says that the world didn’t always exist, and that it came about at a particular time in history.Why would this even occur to someone with no knowledge of science and no basic education? It is highly unlikely that the initial story teller would come to the conclusion on his own that there was a beginning of time, and that the universe didn’t always exist.3. The Bible tells us that God exists outside of time.This is a very sophisticated idea for someone to have come up with all those thousands of years ago. The idea of a metaphysical being living outside of time is a concept that I can’t imagine someone of that era coming up with on his own.My point is I believe that amidst the stories, mythology and metaphor in the Bible there is some truly divine revelation. Of course it is possible that these concepts were a product of human imagination, but I’m inclined to think otherwise.My question is this. How do other non-literalist Christians feel about Biblical revelation?Did God divinely inspire one or more of our distant ancestors with the three concepts above?

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You are completely wrong. Read the Vedas, Hindu’s had a creator God thousands of years before the Jews adopted their one. This is just one of many faiths that have creator gods. This is more down to the way human’s think, we seem to think that everything physical must have a beginning and an end, but who is to say that this is true? Is it impossible for the universe to be eternal? Where? Why not? Ah, but how do you separate these? How do you find a revelation? Why?Brian.

Incorrect. As already mentioned, the Hindus had a creation myth and creator god long before the Jewish faith. There are many other religions, as well, who had a creation myth as well as a creator god. Several native American tribes, for instance, had creation stories involving an animal god creating the world. Not many actually directly worshipped the sun or statues - they worshipped the gods the stsatues represented, kind of like how Christians worship Christ, who is depicted by the Crucifix. Why would it not occur? People have a beginning and an end. Everyone can see that all living things are born, live, and die. It's certainly not a stretch to apply it to the entire world and have a creation myth, as well as a story for the end of time. The linear nature of time (where things actually have beginnings and endings) was certainly not universal, but it certainly existed in many cultures. It really doesn't, so far as I've seen. Please provide the verse that says so.In any case, the idea of a metaphysical being who has always lived and will always live, an eternal god, is not unique to Judeo-Christianity.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

As does almost every other religion. No, not really. People have calculated a beginning date but there is nothing in the Bible that specifically points to that date. Actually, most of the Bible is written as though God is within time. I don't believe so. The points are all pretty common and can be found in most religions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

How is the God of Gen 3 (especially around verse 8) outside of time? He is "walking in the garden in the cool of the day" (KJV). How does that map to someone outside of time (and space)?Chris

You are absolutely correct. I only propose this as personal opinion and not as anything scientific. This is marginally correct. Here is a link that talks about Hindu creation. It is a far cry from the concept of creation as the creation of the universe and then an Earth that was formless and empty. I agree that the whole creation story should be read metaphorically but it seems to me that for the time it was written this is a pretty good metaphor. We think that way now because of modern science. They didn't know that when the oral tradition of creation first came about. Why would anyone in a primitive society that observes what is going on and living in time ever consider a beginning to time. As far as an eternal universe is concerned, I am inclined to believe that the vast majority of scientists believe that it will end. I was just reading yesterday about the "Big Rip". Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created.... He was there before the beginning.John 1 1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning.Ps 90 1-2 Lord, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations. Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world from everlasting to everlasting you are God.Isaiah 65-24 Before they call I (God) will answer.There is a theme throughout scripture of God being eternal, knowing past present and future. This thread is about opinion and philosophy. It just seems to me that living in time is like a fish in water. It is just what is, and to conceive an entity that exists outside of time would require more sophistication than I believe that people of that era would have possessed. Good question and I wish I had a good answer. All I can say is that I believe God has given us wisdom and that we are to exercise that wisdom. However, wise people don’t always come up with the same answers.This is where being a literalist has its advantages because you can just say that the Bible says so. I just don’t believe that it is that simple, but I do believe that everything we need to know about God is contained in the Bible. The arguments usually seem to be about things that aren’t necessary for us to know in the first place. It would probably be a better world if we would spend more time living Christ’s message instead of reading it. (Or arguing about it on internet forums. ) Loving your neighbour isn’t all that difficult a concept.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Were there other religions who viewed creation as being specifically creation from nothing? Can you give examples?I think I covered most of your other points in my reply to Brian.

I'm only talking about a point in time in the history of the universe, in reference to ...In the beginning.......I think that I covered your other points in my replt to Brian.In going back to the OP. Do you believe that there is any true revelation of God within the Bible?

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

From a non-literalist standpoint it is a metaphor that is illuminating a larger truth.Even a literalist could make the point that God entered into time in the person of Jesus Christ and that there would be nothing to stop him from doing so at other times.

Here's a Japanese one. 3 seconds to Google it.

quote:

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Before the heavens and the earth came into existence, all was a chaos, unimaginably limitless and without definite shape or form. Eon followed eon: then, lo! out of this boundless, shapeless mass something light and transparent rose up and formed the heaven. This was the Plain of High Heaven, in which materialized a deity called Ame-no-Minaka-Nushi-no-Mikoto (the Deity-of-the-August-Center-of-Heaven). Next the heavens gave birth to a deity named Takami-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the High-August-Producing-Wondrous-Deity), followed by a third called Kammi-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the Divine-Producing-Wondrous-Deity). These three divine beings are called the Three Creating Deities.

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And here's the beginning of the Greko-Roman myth:

quote:

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In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

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And here's the Mayan creation myth:

quote:

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In the beginning were only Tepeu and Gucumatz. These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals. Each came into being. Because none of these creatures could praise them, they formed more advanced beings of clay. Because the clay beings fell apart when wet, they made beings out of wood; however, the wooden beings caused trouble on the earth. The Gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quich.

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Will that do for now? Judeo-Christianity is not the only set of religions who postulated the world being created from nothing by some sort of being. I think the above does that, if only partially. The Greko-Roman myth doesn't seem to have an immortal Supreme Being, but the Mayans certainly did, as did several other religions who did not necessarily have a creation-from-nothing myth. The ,ayans were the only ones I found in my cursory search who seem to have both at once, but the point should stand.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Thanks Rahvin. Incidently, when I asked the question it wasn't because I didn't think that you couldn't come up with examples, I was just looking for information. One point I'd like to make however. I do believe that we have divine revelation in this world. I don't believe that the only divine revelation exists in the Bible, or that revelation was only given to the one culture.To be honest when I go back and read the OP I realize I should have put more thought into than what I did. I have posted before about reading the Book of Buddha and thinking that the original Buddha was a prophet of God.I still am inclined to believe that the idea of a creation from nothing is an idea that likely was passed on through divine inspiration but I am quite prepared to agree that it was passed on to more than one group of people.If this thread is viewed as a debate I'd venture to say that it isn't going my way, but as a learning experience it's working well for me and hopefully for others.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

On this, I fully agree. I think there are many paths to God, and not all of them are through Judeo-Christianity. This is where I disagree with you. The Creation story really doesn't matter at all. What does matter is the teachings of the faith itself, like "love thy neighbor as you love yourself." For every bit of good stuff in the Bible, many other religions echo similar teachings. I think this is the divinely inspired portion of both the Bible and world religions as a whole.Honestly, does the way the world was created really matter to your day-to-day life? If the Earth was made in 6 days or 6 billion years, does it really matter in terms of what kind of life you should lead? I don't think God would concern Himself with such trivialities of specific theology.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

GDR, the Bible does suggest strongly that prophets and witnesses were in other cultures, and that indivuals could be righteous without being Jewish, but that the Jews were the only nation with a special "covenant" with God, and that this covenantal salvation is now expressed through the Body of Christ for all nations and peoples to come into His kingdom.Balaam, as an example of non-Jewish prophets, was a real prophet or seer. His falseness was not that his gifting was fake. He talked with God, for example, and always prophesied the true word of God it seems. His falseness consisted of using his wisdom and insight, granted by God through his gifting, to teach the enemies of God's purposes how to seduce Israel and potentially defeat or setback the purposes of God.The whole episode is very interesting, and strongly suggests real prophets can nevertheless become false, and indicates that God has real prophets, and probably many true prophets in non-covenantal cultures.But concerning Budhism, like Christianity in different times (Inquisition), there can be a wide difference in the idealized teachings and actual practices. Idolatry is specifically condemned in the Bible, and it appears popular Budhhism often has devolved into idolatry essentially.I would also treat the claims of reincarnation suspiciously. That stems from Hinduism, and has been used as a means to keep groups of people down, isolated, oppressed, etc,..via the caste system.I think it is possible that within the spiritual realm, there exists memories of the past, perhaps a part of consciousness existing outside of our time parameters, and people pick up on these memories or minds and assume they were reincarnated.In terms of the predictive aspects of divine revelation in the Bible, you are absolutely correct. The Big Bang, dark matter, dinosaur era birds, plasma (liguid) as the premordial substance, man being a late creation, land mammals of today created after fish and dinosaur era "birds" or flying creatures, physical things being at their root information or a design (In the Beginning was the Word), consciousness and faith being able to impact directly somehow the physical world (QM observation/consciousness models), and a host of other issues, imo, point to the Bible as having divine inspiration, whether or not thinks every word is inspired or not.

This is off topic and has been gone over before but I don't believe that only Christians have salvation, nor do I believe that all who call themselves Christian have salvation. (Salvation being eternity with God.) I agree with the approach of CS Lewis in this. It matters from the point of view that it outlines our relationship with God although not, IMHO, in a literal sense. Understanding our relationship with God does help provide a foundation for our love of neighbour. Building relationship with Christ will, in my view and in my experience, enhance my awareness of, and my love for, my neighbour. None of this is meant to suggest that non Christians aren't able to love their neighbour, and no doubt many Christians and non Christians alike are far better at it than I am. We are in agreement here. As I said before, I believe in divine inspiration but I don't believe that it is only found within the Bible, or that it is restricted to Christianity. I absolutely agree. My point in bringing this up is that I have been concerned that non-literalists like you and I are possibly sounding like we are trivialising the Bible. I do believe that the Bible contains the truth of our existence, but as I have said before, I don't believe that it should be read as a science text or a newspaper.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.