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Author Topic:   Manna from Heaven. What the Grossness? (Ex. 16)
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 79 (432114)
11-03-2007 8:29 PM



Exodus 16:13-31*
13”; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.
14 And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a ne, ake-like thing, ne as hoarfrost on the groud.
15 When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "It is manna." For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them "It is bread which the Lord has given you to eat.
16 This is what the Lord has commanded: 'Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"
17 And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.
18 But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.
19 And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."
20 But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it till morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.
21 Morning by morning they gathered it, each as much as he could eat; but when the sun grew hot, it melted.
...
31 Now the house of Israel called its name manna; it was like coriander seed, white, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. (Revised Standard Version)

Is there any actual substance that could have been the inspiration for this story? A couple reasons that I think this could be so include: If this were made up, then after God said He would bring bread, one would doubt the next 'made up' part of the story to be God giving them some wormy foam stuff instead. The description of this stuff is somewhat disgusting. Who makes up a story in which God's salvation ends up being wormy dew-akes? This stuff isn't bread; if the jist of your story is that God brought down bread from heaven, then why make up a description of something that clearly isn't bread?
So, let us, for the sake of this post, make the assumption that there truly was an Exodus, but let us not assume supernatural explanation for everything. Is there any real worldly substance on which this 'manna from heaven' could have been based? A couple important properties to keep in mind:
1) It easily attracts worms;
2) It melts in the heat;
3) It appears shortly after leaving Egypt (Ex 16:13); and
4) It disappears when they nally get where they're going (Josh 5:12).
What in heavens on earth could this stuff be?
Jon
__________
* Some footnote commentary has been inserted to replace the original text where indicated by the RSV.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon, : Removed message to admins.

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Lithodid-Man, posted 11-03-2007 9:08 PM Jon has replied
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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 79 (432117)
11-03-2007 8:50 PM


DELETE DOUBLE POST
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 79 (432120)
11-03-2007 8:51 PM


Manna you tell us what it is!
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Anyone have any ideas what Manna was made of?
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 4 of 79 (432128)
11-03-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
11-03-2007 8:29 PM


Something I know!
In: Sharp D (1899) Insects part 2. Cambridge Natural History Series Vol VI. 626 pp.
Under family Coocidae (scale insects) "The manna mentioned in the book of Exodus is pretty certainly the honey-dew secreted by Coccus (now Gossyparia) mannifera, which lives on Tamarix in many places in the Mediterranean basin. The substance is still called by the Arabs "man" and is used as food; in its natural state it is a substance very like honey"

"I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 79 (432129)
11-03-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Lithodid-Man
11-03-2007 9:08 PM


Re: Something I know!
Neat! You know, there was a reference similar to this in my dictionary. Now, when you say "secrete", is that synonymous with "decate"? And how much do you suppose such creatures can produce?
Thanks,
Jon

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 79 (432130)
11-03-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
11-03-2007 8:29 PM


Who knows but it is really unimportant.
The manna mentioned in Exodus is more a plot device rather than anything else. Lith is very likely right on the factual source, but it really doesn't matter.
The point of the story is that the Sabbath should be kept.
Exodus is a long folk tale that was designed to be told in small installments over many nights (gotta keep the storytellers fed) with some miracle or cliff hanger in each story.
It's also one of the strange and unlikely tales found throughout Exodus that simply makes no sense on the face of it. In Exodus 16 the folk are only about two and a half months into their 40 year trek and also remember they took all their cattle, goats, sheep, herds with them when they left, and even in the story they get fed Quail in the evenings.
The point of this part of the story begins in Verse 22:
22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much”two omers for each person”and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.' "
24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."
27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
The manna is just a plot device to get to the place where the Sabbath rules could be reinforced.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 79 (432134)
11-03-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Lithodid-Man
11-03-2007 9:08 PM


Re: Something I know!
It was not anything existing on earth normally but similar to coriander seed as per Numbers 11:7,8:
text writes:
" 7 And the manna was like coriander seed, and the appearance thereof as the appearance of bdellium.
8 The people went about, and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in mortars, and boiled it in pots, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.
9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.
A good description of the properties and benefits of coriander seed can be read here. However, note in the scripture text that it was not coriander seed but similar, meaning likely having similar properties. The text description of manna and how they prepared it, etc implies that it had more properties than the spice seed.
Also according to the text it had the appearance of bdellium which is defined by Merriam Webster as " a gum resin similar to myrrh obtained from various trees (genus Commiphora) of the East Indies and Africa"
Again it was not bdellium but had a similar look and consistency.
It had to have had all the properties needful to completely satisfy the perfect diet for man for decades. This had to have included protein, all the needful vitamins, all the needful minerals and fiber etc for the perfect diet. This diet was so excellent and healthy that the Israelites were able to wipe out kingdom after kingdom in Caanan as well as survive in an otherwise uninhabitable land.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 79 (432140)
11-04-2007 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Something I know!
It had to have had all the properties needful to completely satisfy the perfect diet for man for decades.
Of course, it didn't. As we read in the verses following the ones you quoted, the people get quite sick of eating that crap and they want meat.
defined by Merriam Webster as " a gum resin similar to myrrh obtained from various trees (genus Commiphora) of the East Indies and Africa"
Cool. Same description given for manna.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 79 (432156)
11-04-2007 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jon
11-03-2007 9:19 PM


Re: Something I know!
quote:
Now, when you say "secrete", is that synonymous with "decate"?
No.
"Excrete" is what you do with feces. Hence the word, "excrement".

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 79 (432171)
11-04-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 11:17 PM


So seeds and gum resins look and feel the same? That's....er....interesting.
You're even more gullible than I thought, Buz.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 79 (432190)
11-04-2007 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
11-03-2007 11:17 PM


Exodus manna vs Numbers manna
Manna from heaven is mentioned in two places in the Bible and the descriptions of the substance are totally different. This is not too surprising since the stories likely come from two different traditions, Exodus from the "J' tradition and Numbers from the "P" source.
The Manna in Exodus has the taste of honey while the manna in Numbers is like oil; the manna in Exodus is gathered aand simply eaten while the manna in Numbers seems to require preparation.
However:
The text description of manna and how they prepared it, etc implies that it had more properties than the spice seed.
is simply nonsense. There is no indication that it was anything more than a bread substitute.
It had to have had all the properties needful to completely satisfy the perfect diet for man for decades. This had to have included protein, all the needful vitamins, all the needful minerals and fiber etc for the perfect diet.
That is also simply not supported by the Bible. There is no indication that manna played any part more than as a bread substitute. They still had their cattle, goats, sheep, wild life such as quail.
This diet was so excellent and healthy that the Israelites were able to wipe out kingdom after kingdom in Caanan as well as survive in an otherwise uninhabitable land.
Again, while the Conquest of Canaan is part of the Joshua story, there are no indications it ever happened in fact. Nor is there anything in the text to relate manna to any such event.
As pointed out above, the purpose of the Exodus fable is to reinforce the Sabbath Laws while the tale in Numbers is about not appreciating what you have been given.
Two different stories, two different mannas, two different traditions, two different purposes for the tales.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 79 (432199)
11-04-2007 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-04-2007 12:22 PM


Re: Exodus manna vs Numbers manna
Nice to see someone has a brain in here. J P E D
It certainly explains a lot of Biblical questions especially why there are contra dictions.

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 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-04-2007 12:22 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 79 (432208)
11-04-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by bluescat48
11-04-2007 1:43 PM


Joshua manna
Well, I wouldn't say it is a brain issue, more simply one of reading what is written and paying attention. The idea of manna as some bread substitute is reinforced by the mention in Joshua 5.
While it was possible to take along the animals, to gather wild game and to harvest things like "manna" in the wilderness, a foraging lifestyle is not conducive to the agricultural lifestyle needed to grow and harvest grains. They could certainly harvest the wild grains that might be found, but none of those are really conducive to making bread or the equivalent of wheat, rye, oats or barley.
The passage in Joshua affirms this description.
10 On the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, while camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, the Israelites celebrated the Passover. 11 The day after the Passover, that very day, they ate some of the produce of the land: unleavened bread and roasted grain. 12 The manna stopped the day after they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate of the produce of Canaan.
Here we see the manna stopping as soon as they find access to agricultural products, in this case likely raiding the fields of the farmers in Canaan. Whether the manna itself stops or they simply return to the better source, grains, might be a matter of interpretation.
In any case, manna is not seen in any of the stories as anything other than some less than desirable, stopgap food source, and manna is only used as a plot device in any of the stories and is not essential to any of the messages.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 79 (432251)
11-04-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
11-04-2007 2:08 AM


Re: Something I know!
Jon writes:
Of course, it didn't. As we read in the verses following the ones you quoted, the people get quite sick of eating that crap and they want meat.
Please cite the specific text which makes you think they got sick on manna. You've spun this out of whole cloth. It's false. The verse before the ones I cited says they loathed the food they had in Egypt like the flesh/meat, the fish, the vegetables and fruits etc but nothing indicates they got physically sick on mannah.
They were in a desolate wilderness where water was scarce and because of the large number of them which was equal to a sizeable city there had to be augmentation of their food supply. What few animals they had was not enough to provide meat for this crowd. Then too, there would be little food for a large herd of cattle. Likely they were able to acqure some food other than the manna, but not the fruits and vegies which would be needful for the healthy diet which they got via the mannah.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 11-04-2007 2:08 AM Jon has not replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 15 of 79 (432260)
11-04-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
11-04-2007 8:47 PM


Have you ever read the Bible Buz?
buz writes:
The verse before the ones I cited says they loathed the food they had in Egypt like the flesh/meat, the fish, the vegetables and fruits etc but nothing indicates they got physically sick on mannah.
Nonsense Buz, in fact that is the exact opposite of what the Bible says and a misrepresentation of what Jon said.
The verses from right before the verse you quoted says that the people remembered fondly the food they had in Egypt.
Numbers 11 writes:
4 The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, "If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost”also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. 6 But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!"
The people were sick of eating manna which was what Jon said, not that manna made them sick.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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