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Author Topic:   Dialogue Between Satan and God in the Book of Job
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 146 (370343)
12-17-2006 6:08 AM


The following is an excerpt from the book of Job, presenting a dialogue between Satan and God:
quote:
[Satan has just made himself present at a meeting of the "sons of God"]
Job 1:7 -- And the LORD said unto Sa'-tan, Whence comest thou? Then Sa'-tan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (8) And the LORD said unto Sa'-tan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil? (9) Then Sa'-tan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? (10) Hast thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. (11) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (12) And the LORD said unto Sa'-tan, Behold, all that he hath is in they power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Sa'-tan went forth from the presence of the LORD
This exchange of words clearly shows Satan's manipulative power, not just over the ordinary man, but over the Man Himself! He uses God's own ego and self pride against Him that He will grant Satan power to do evil unto His most humble and loyal follower.
In what is clearly a brilliantly-worked episode of reverse psychology, Satan has outsmarted the Father of Creation!
Whether Satan knows Job will give in or not is irrelevant; in fact, all the rest of the book is irrelevant to this one exchange. Were God truly as loving as you are supposed to believe, He would've not allowed such horrible treatment of such a loyal and good man. However, Satan puts up a challenge, and, instead of lovingly backing down, God accepts. Except, Satan's secret agenda is to gain power to do evil, as is customary of Satan. Whereas God is interested only in proving Satan wrong, and shows no regards to Job, but instead allows His God-ly pride to get in the way of His loving nature.
This leaves two possibilities:
1) God IS all-loving, except He loves Himself a slight bit more
2) God is less brilliant and genius than Satan
Neither of these possibilities sits well for Christianity.
I would like this topic to focus ONLY on the above passage of Scripture and its meaning. Please do not discuss the rest of the book of Job. References to Scripture which confirm or contradict any parts of my assessment are allowed.
Thoughts?
J0N
Edited by Jon, : Added message to the administrator.
Edited by Jon, : Removed message to the administrator.

In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 146 (370347)
12-17-2006 7:08 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 146 (370362)
12-17-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
12-17-2006 6:08 AM


I always found Job, with God and Satan trash talking, to be interesting. It seems to me that
(1) Job is a moral fairy tale, not meant to be taken literally,
(2) Job is an old story, from a time with a more anthropomorphic God, before the Hellenic transcendental God became de rigeur, or
(3) both, an older concept used to make a contemporary (to the writer) story.

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. -- Otto von Bismarck

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honda33
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 51
From: Antigua
Joined: 04-11-2006


Message 4 of 146 (370369)
12-17-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
12-17-2006 6:08 AM


It is futile to use reverse psychology on God. Remember He is omniscient. What is kinda weird is that Satan doesn't know that.
If Satan does know that God is omniscient then He also knows that whatever the outcome God will always win. So Job's suffering was really what God wanted. The only logical explanation to this little wager is that is that Satan is ignorant to God's all-knowing abilities, or maybe he knows but his logic needs a bit of work.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 146 (370371)
12-17-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
12-17-2006 6:08 AM


Since God brought up the subject of Job, how do you figure Satan "manipulated" Him?
Did I "manipulate" you into starting this topic?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 146 (370373)
12-17-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
12-17-2006 6:08 AM


Were do you find some of your assertions?
Jon writes:
I would like this topic to focus ONLY on the above passage of Scripture and its meaning. Please do not discuss the rest of the book of Job. References to Scripture which confirm or contradict any parts of my assessment are allowed.
But the Jon says:
Except, Satan's secret agenda is to gain power to do evil, as is customary of Satan.
Where in that passage to you find Satan's secret agenda or that it is customary of Satan?
Does the passage not imply that doing evil was NOT Satan's normal behavior but that instead he was simply using a classic technique that should be part of every managers portfolio, "Managing by Walking Around?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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honda33
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 51
From: Antigua
Joined: 04-11-2006


Message 7 of 146 (370377)
12-17-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
12-17-2006 11:01 AM


Since God brought up the subject of Job, how do you figure Satan "manipulated" Him?
Did I "manipulate" you into starting this topic?
No I don't think you did, but you could manipulate him based on something he said in his OP. The conversation starter is not immune from manipulation.

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honda33
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 51
From: Antigua
Joined: 04-11-2006


Message 8 of 146 (370380)
12-17-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
12-17-2006 11:25 AM


Re: Were do you find some of your assertions?
Where in that passage to you find Satan's secret agenda or that it is customary of Satan?
That's why Jon said;
References to Scripture which confirm or contradict any parts of my assessment are allowed.

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 9 of 146 (370384)
12-17-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
12-17-2006 9:34 AM


Chiropter, you wrote:
I always found Job, with God and Satan trash talking, to be interesting. It seems to me that
(1) Job is a moral fairy tale, not meant to be taken literally,
(2) Job is an old story, from a time with a more anthropomorphic God, before the Hellenic transcendental God became de rigeur, or
(3) both, an older concept used to make a contemporary (to the writer) story.
I agree with you. But there is a fourth possibility: Job actually was tortured that way, in some Hebraic context, and thus the Bible provides Absolute Truth about the what God really stands for”covert terrorism with a monstrous appetite for souls.
”Hoot Mon

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 146 (370385)
12-17-2006 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by honda33
12-17-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Were do you find some of your assertions?
Yet he does not want to discuss the rest of the Book of Job. The section he brings up is but a small part of the purpose of the story, a plot device which allows the conditions that appear later in the tale.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 146 (370386)
12-17-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by honda33
12-17-2006 11:46 AM


honda33 writes:
The conversation starter is not immune from manipulation.
Where is there any sign of manipulation by Satan?
God initiated the conversation:
quote:
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?
God initiated the subject of Job:
quote:
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God challenged Satan to mess with Job:
quote:
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;
God put limits on what Satan could do to Job:
quote:
Job 1:12 ... only upon himself put not forth thine hand.
Where in the passage does Satan come across as anything but a minion?

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 146 (370392)
12-17-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
12-17-2006 12:24 PM


You're not quoting the whole thing. Satan is edging God. God mentions how loyal and wonderful Job is (perhaps He is proud of him; the reason doesn't much matter), Satan responds with a "Yeah? I bet he wouldn't be so damned loyal and wonderful if you took away all the great shit you've given him."
God accepts the bet, convinced He is right. Satan may be convinced he is right or not, but that isn't important. What is important is that Satan's technique gains him power from God to do something that God would not normally do (at least not a good God). It would be like hunting down Osama Bin-Laden and then puting him in power in place of the president. Who ever puts the evil in power, is certainly equally as evil.
God puts the evil in power, yet, God is supposed to be good, which brings up the two possibilities I mentioned in the OP.
J0N
p.s. you say God challenged Satan, but what you quoted is actually God accepting the challenge!
Edited by Jon, : Format.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 146 (370394)
12-17-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by honda33
12-17-2006 10:56 AM


Then this brings us to thinking, does it not, of why a good God--a God worth worshipping--would ever want such horrible things to happen to such a fine and upstanding fellow.
And besides, why even bother studying the Bible if you are just going to explain away every contradiction with "God's omniscient, He knows everything, it only happened because He wanted it to"?
J0N

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 14 of 146 (370397)
12-17-2006 1:48 PM


"...Oh, you tireless watcher! What have I done to you?
That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true?"
(from Joni Mitchell's "The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)"

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 15 of 146 (370402)
12-17-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jon
12-17-2006 1:13 PM


Jon writes:
What is important is that Satan's technique gains him power from God....
God says to Satan, "Look what a fine, upstanding man Job is." Satan responds, "I bet he wouldn't be so loyal to you if you took away his cars and houses and dancing girls."
God throws it back at him, "No, you do your worst. That way you can't claim I went easy on him."
The challenge is to Satan from God. He doesn't gain power from God - he gets permission to test Job.
And remember that Satan loses the "bet", so there is no possibility of him being smarter than God.
It would be like hunting down Osama Bin-Laden and then puting him in power in place of the president.
Bad analogy. Bin-Laden is an enemy, Satan is an employee. (The story would start with Bin-Laden strolling into a cabinet meeting and Dubya asking him what he's been up to.)
It is, after all, a story. The moral of the story is that bad things can happen to good people but good people can still be good.
"Evil" doesn't really enter into it at all. The misfortunes that befall Job are facts of everyday life, in no way comparable to terrorist attacks. The character "Satan" is not the personification of evil - he's the personification of bad happenstance.
So the God in the story isn't "evil" - He just acknowledges that life on earth isn't perfect.

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