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Author Topic:   What did Samuel and the medium of Endor see?
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6438 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 1 of 5 (306799)
04-26-2006 4:53 PM


1 Samuel 28 (KJV):
quote:
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
The next few verses go on to say that the Philistines got ready to fight the Israelites, and Saul tried to speak to the Lord, but the Lord didn't answer. Apparently the Almighty was still displeased with Saul.
quote:
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
Guess Saul didn't get rid of all the fortune tellers after all, despite the statement in vs. 3. Her business wasn't that much of a secret either, despite its illegality.
quote:
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
A cagey witch, wasn't she?
quote:
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
The woman saw Samuel--or someone she thought was Samuel, but that's a topic for another day--but apparently Saul didn't see anything. Was she looking into a crystal ball, or what?
quote:
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
"Gods"?
quote:
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
Now we're back to the singular, and no more mention of "god" or "gods."
quote:
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
Samuel then continued to read the riot act to Saul. Did he do so directly, or through the medium?
quote:
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.
22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.
She had to give the king strength to go out and die the next day on the battlefield. How considerate!
quote:
24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it,
Poor calf.
quote:
and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:
25 And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.
THE END
My questions are, What did Samuel, the unnamed woman (and why wasn't she ever named?), and the servants actually see during this exchange? It looks like only the woman "saw" anything; Saul merely "perceived" that whatever the woman had conjured up was Samuel. And how did she know that Saul was Saul, since she grew alarmed in verse 12, before Saul perceived that the spirit was Samuel?
And what's with the reference to "gods"? Some modern translations (eg., NIV) change the word to "spirit(s)." As the conversation progresses, there seems to be only one "spirit" or "god," meaning either that several came up, but only one was of importance, or we have two stories awkwardly mixed together here.
Unless an "Accuracy/Inerrancy" approach seems promising here, this should probably go in "Bible Study."

  
AdminPD
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Message 2 of 5 (306898)
04-26-2006 8:35 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6438 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 3 of 5 (307190)
04-27-2006 7:26 PM


What, not who
For those who want to take a crack at this topic, remember that the question I'm asking is what the medium and Saul actually saw or experienced, not whether the "ghost" was actually Samuel.

Never overestimate the intelligence of someone who thinks you're wrong.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-30-2006 10:38 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6438 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 4 of 5 (311321)
05-12-2006 1:28 AM


My opinions
I'm the only opining on this topic? Oh, well, here I go.
Irrespective of what the medium may have really seen, I believe she genuinely saw something, perhaps a group of spirits, among which "Samuel" stood out. I don't think Saul actually saw anything (remember that he said, "What sawest thou?" i.e., "What did you see?"); he "perceived" what was going on completely from the woman's descriptions of what she had seen. When "Samuel" spoke to Saul, he must have spoken through the woman's mouth. I don't have an opinion as to whether she "changed" her voice to sound more like Samuel, but I don't suppose she would have had to.

Never overestimate the intelligence of someone who thinks you're wrong.

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 5 of 5 (316423)
05-30-2006 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by DeclinetoState
04-27-2006 7:26 PM


Re: What, not who
For those who want to take a crack at this topic, remember that the question I'm asking is what the medium and Saul actually saw or experienced, not whether the "ghost" was actually Samuel.
The apparition was not Samuel because Samuel was dead. Persons who have ceased to exist in this life cannot have contact with this life.
1Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit....
The original Hebrew for "familiar spirit" conveys the word "ventriliquist". The woman was a fraud deceiving naiveve persons in order to make money.
1Samuel 28:11 and partial verse 12
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice....
This is how we know she was a fraud. As she went into her routine an apparition appeared which she did not expect to see. This is why, verse 12, above, says, she "cried with a loud voice". The ventriliquist at Endor was shocked that a genuine supernatural event actually occurred.
Here is what is going on:
In context: The O.T. exists within the context of the Fall and Satan has right of control. Saul was judged by God for failing to execute judgement on Amalek the way God ordered him to. Instead of falling on his face and seeking God's mercy (like David did when he sinned) Saul didn't care. Now he is in trouble with the Philistines approaching and he still won't drop everything and seek God. Even though the Scriptures say God would not answer Saul that meant God would not do so on Saul's schedule. Instead, Saul shows his spiritual state to be aligned with the occult/Satan.
Here is what happened at Endor:
Demons wanted to secure Saul's soul. When he opened himself up to their area of domain Saul was subject to their supernatural deceptive powers. The apparition was real and it was a demon impersonating Saul. All the apparition did was to repeat what Samuel told Saul after he failed to destroy Amalek. Those words of judgement had the sting of God's authority because the original words from Samuel were from God. IOW, the demon simply reminded Saul of what God said through Samuel HOPING to make Saul forever give up on God.
The Scriptures recording of Saul's end portrays a person who believed the demon.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by DeclinetoState, posted 04-27-2006 7:26 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
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