Did Jesus lie ?

This topic is really a continuation of something posted on another thread.Brian postulated that Jesus did lie and gave this verse as evidence:

quote:

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Mt 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

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to which Riverrat responded: Now, I've heard a couple of justifications on why this verse isn't a lie or a false prophecy but this one's new to me.I'd like to invite Brian, Riverrat and anyone else to demonstrate how exactly the above verse has (or hasn't) come true.Presumably, this is one for the Biblical Study forum ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum. Edited by AdminPD, : Request

We have to take Jesus' audience into consideration here.The majority of His audience would have been uneducated, more than likely they would be beggars, farmers, fishermen and maybe some tradesmen.So, we should concentrate on what Jesus' words would mean to them and not what some spin doctors hundreds of years later CLAIM that Jesus meant. There would be no point in Jesus speaking about a deep philosophical and theological death to an uneducated crowd, 95% of which couldnt read or write.No, Jesus would need t speak to them in terms that they would understand, and they understaood what death meant, they understood that a man was alloted 70 years and then he would die, or 80 years if he has the strength.Psalm 90:10The length of our days is seventy years, or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away. The audience knew what Jesus meant.It was only after it was evident that Jesus lied that the Church had to make up some excuse for Him.It's simply another 'self fulfilling prophecy', they believe Jesus never lied so they find some excuse to explain away an obvious lie, they need to keep their fantasy intact, and it doesn't matter if what they say is in the Bible or not, it doesn't matter if they have to add to the text, Jeus couldn;t be seen to be a liar.It was obvious what Jesus meant, He would return soon, he even told his disciples this:Matthew 10:23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.Now, Israel did not have that many cities, so the return must have been expected very soon.In Matthew 10:23 Jesus was speaking to His disciples, ask yourself this, what would they have thought Jesus meant? Would it be that He would return very soon, apparently before they could go through all the cities in Israel, or would it be more than 1950 years later?Incidently, we are still waiting for Jesus 'Walter Mitty' Christ to turn up.There are other clear cut lies that Jesus told, that is if the Gospels accurately record His words, but lest see the wonderful contortions to exlain this whopper away.RR's excuse is a good example of how the Christian apologist's mind works.His retort 'they are not dead' doesn't really address the issue at all. The text says that 'some' of the people will not have tasted death, which implies that some will have tasted death, so 'they are not dead' doesn't mean anything.Brian. Edited by Brian, : added last paragraph which was lost in transit

If god doesn't exist then a lot of the stuff Jesus said was a lie.If Jesus really was the son of god then they weren't lies.There's no way to know for sure. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

I don't follow your logic here.Why can't a son of God not tell a lie?Brian. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

I think you're reading the Bible too literally. Yeah, right. He spoke about a deep philosophical and theological death a lot of times. Or admittedly never if he wasmaking it all up.If you want to be ultra-literal about it then we could argue that some of them wouldn't have tasted anything when they died, so Jesus wasn't lying in that they wouldn't have tasted death I can't tell if your being serious or playing devil's advocate. I realize your an atheist but you seem to be trying to have some fun with christians by calling Jesus a lier.

I didn't meant to claim that a son of god is unable to lie. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

To whom, pig farmers and drunks? And what would the others have tasted? Oh, I am serious, but the excuses will be amusing, they always are.Brian.

What do you mean then?Brian. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

Yeah, and Pilot and the Phariasees, IIRC. Poison if they died that way. Or blood, or vomit. Whatever people might tast while dying. Well, enjoy yourself.

Like, when Jesus said that he was the son of god. If there is no god then he was lying, or crazy, but he could have been telling the truth, especially if there really is a god. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

I can see the point in putting a deep point across to Pilate and the Pharisees, but to the common man in the street it would be misleading, they wouldn't have a clue what He was on about. So, you agree with me that everyone in Jesus' audience is dead?What do you think Jesus meant? Always do.Brian.

There are those like N T Wright that believe that God's kingdom is being established here on earth. The resurrection was the genesis of the establishing of the kingdom, His new creation, so Jesus would have been referring to the resurrection and to pentecost.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

That would depend on what you mean as 'Son of God'. To first century Jews everyone who believed in yahweh was a son of God.Even if there is a God Jesus could still be a liar, and based on the things He said it look pretty obvious that He was. Maybe not everything He said, but certainly a good portion of it.But, if people are going to read the Bible with the preconcieved notion that jesus wasn't a liar then they are not going to be able to see the lies He told.Brian. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

Maybe he was being misleading on purpose so they thought he was claiming something more immediate so they would assign more weight to the claim. We're getting closer to lying here but still not there. Maybe he was just far out, man. Maybe he was being honest and deep, without trying to be misleading, and the people really didn't have a clue what he was on about. The people who were physically there, yes they are dead as in no longer alive. Spiritual death.